The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

1. Questions to the Minister for Climate Change

Good afternoon and welcome, everyone, to this Plenary Meeting. The first item this afternoon is questions to the Minister for Climate Change and I've been notified, under Standing Order 12.58, that the Deputy Minister for Climate Change, Lee Waters, will answer all the questions this afternoon. The first question is from Sarah Murphy.

Daily Household Usage of Water

Sarah Murphy AS: 1. How is the Welsh Government working to reduce daily household usage of water? OQ58731

Lee Waters AC: Thank you, and, Llywydd, I'd like to pass on the apologies of Julie James for not being able to be here this afternoon.
We announced in July our strategic priorities and objectives statement. This sets a clear mandate for Ofwat to incentivise the efficient use of water resources by encouraging companies to reduce water consumption.

Sarah Murphy AS: Thank you, Minister. Climate science tells us we're in for longer, hotter and dryer summers with the likelihood of ever more severe water shortages. Reducing daily water consumption would not only mitigate some of the challenges we've seen and will continue to see during the summer, but can also address water poverty during the current cost-of-living crisis. For example, there are parts of Wales at the moment that are at drought levels and we're only in November. In other countries, there are already targets set for water usage, with Brussels having a target of 96 litres per person per day, and there are also tech solutions such as water-saving flushes and tap fittings that I know Welsh Water already supply to customers, and that my group, Porthcawl U3A, were very keen for me to ask you about. So, Minister, given that parts of Wales are highly likely to continue facing summer drought and as bills continue to rise, what considerations have the Welsh Government made to upping our water efficiency status and potentially introducing a target that is ambitious enough to be meaningful in a climate and cost-of-living crisis?

Lee Waters AC: Well, thank you. The Member raises a really important issue. As she says, our water system is under continued stress because of man-made climate change and it is going to get worse. The messages coming out of COP last week in Egypt were quite distressing about the state of the science and the level of the severity of the threat to us. So, conserving our water and treating it as the scarce resource that it is is essential. I've welcomed the campaign by Friends of the Earth to highlight this.
There are number of things going on. There are individual initiatives by water companies. So, Dŵr Cymru, for example, has a set of tips that it promotes, encouraging people to take small measures for people to make a difference, like taking a shower instead of a bath, not leaving the tap running when you're brushing your teeth—these, cumulatively, make a meaningful contribution. Ofwat have also challenged the water companies to reduce leakage by at least 15 per cent over the next five years and both water companies in Wales are committed to doing this.
We are working with the UK Government on proposals to introduce a water efficiency labelling scheme to label water-using products such as taps, showers, toilets and dishwashers, and this will enable consumers to compare the relative water efficiency of these appliances, as they can for gas and electricity appliances. There are no plans at the moment to introduce targets, but clearly that's something we need to keep under review, depending on how the environment continues to change.

Altaf Hussain AS: Minister, last year, Welsh Water customers consumed the most water per person per day, compared to all other regions in England. Our daily consumption at 176 litres was significantly higher than areas such as Bristol, for example, at 161 litres per day. What discussions has the Minister had with Welsh Water about the reasons for higher usage regarding household water consumption? As we attempt to be more responsible with our natural resources, it is clear that we need to take action to address this.

Lee Waters AC: Well, thank you for highlighting this important issue. The water companies do have a duty to produce water resource management plans every five years and these must adhere to the Welsh Government's principles, which provide a high-level framework for the companies to follow in developing their plans. Dŵr Cymru has a commitment to reduce the average per-capitaconsumption of its domestic customers to 110 litres per person per day by 2050, and it plans to do this with a combination of education and behavioural change campaigns alongside increased household metering and leakage repairs. And we are continuing to work closely with them on that and Natural Resources Wales, along with Hafren Dyfrdwy—the two companies operating in Wales.

Junction Improvements on the A483

Ken Skates AC: 2. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's review of junction improvements on the A483? OQ58740

Lee Waters AC: The roads review panel has submitted its final report to the Welsh Government about its findings for each of the road schemes that it has reviewed, and this includes the A483 junctions 3-6 improvements. I will be making a further announcement on the next steps of the roads review by the end of the month.

Ken Skates AC: Thank you for your statement, Minister. Of course, junction 1 at Ruabon was not included in the roads review, and therefore work on improving that junction has not been paused, and it's for good reason. That particular junction is utterly lethal and has created a congestion canyon right up the A483, with resulting carbon emissions increases. And, of course, it's also sending motorists onto local roads, again, putting lives at risk, particularly schoolchildren, and deteriorating the air quality in and around Ruabon. Minister, would you agree to visit the A483 and to meet with community leaders, and can you outline what progress has been made in the past year on work to improve junction 1 on the A483?

Lee Waters AC: Thank you. As Ken Skates rightly says, junction 1 was not included as part of the roads review schemes that it has looked at, but the other junctions were. The proposals that have been put forward by the local council for junction 1 would involve a large remodelling of the junction, which would be carbon intensive and would increase road capacity. So, this is relevant to the recommendations we're anticipating from the roads review about future road schemes. What we don't want to do, by treating schemes in isolation—there's always a case for individual schemes—is for the cumulative impact of that to add to traffic volumes. So, we do need to think very carefully. That said, where there are traffic problems, there need to be solutions, and one of the themes in the roads review is how future roads can be made compliant with existing policies on climate change, transport and planning. So, when we produce the results, in the areas where we accept the recommendations of the review not to go ahead with a road, we will want to work with the local authority and other partners to see what else can be done in that case. As I say, I'm not able to preannounce what's decided—largely because we haven't yet decided—but we'll be updating Members in the coming weeks on the next steps.

Russell George AC: Minister, one improvement that's needed on the A483 is in regards to the Pant-Llanymynech bypass, which I've mentioned a number of times in this Chamber, and you'll know I'm very keen to see this bypass, partly in my constituency, move forward. So, I'm quite keen that, due to the roads review on the Welsh side, this scheme isn't delayed any further. As I understand it, the UK Government—. It's a joint scheme between the Welsh Government and the UK Government, with Highways England leading on the scheme. I wonder if you are in a position to update me, Minister, on the scheme, if not today, in writing, because this scheme is particularly important, because it's not just a bypass; it's actually a road safety improvement. And if you are on the way up the A483 to visit Ken Skates in his constituency, can I ask if you'd stop on the way and meet me in my constituency to discuss this part of the road area as well?

Lee Waters AC: There's nothing more I love than travelling around Wales visiting bypasses with my colleagues from the Senedd, so we'll see if the diary allows. I'm afraid the—. It's a cross-border scheme, as you say—only 5 per cent of it is in Wales, the rest being in England. And there are ongoing discussions between Highways England and Welsh Government officials about moving to the next stage, and I'm expecting some advice shortly about that, and I'd be happy to update the Member when I know more.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson first of all, Natasha Asghar.

Natasha Asghar AS: Thank you, Presiding Officer. Deputy Minister, during a recent interview on Sharp End, you hit out at Cardiff Bus for raising concerns about your controversial plans to roll out 20 mph speed limits across Wales. They feared that the move—which, I must stress, will cost upwards of £32 million—will lead to slower and more unreliable bus journeys. Deputy Minister, in response to the legitimate concerns raised by the company, you said Cardiff Bus had, and I quote,
'a remarkably narrow-sighted view'.
However, isn't it actually the reverse, Deputy Minister? It is in fact you who is narrow sighted, pushing ahead with this 20 mph plan whilst ignoring legitimate concerns, especially in light of a new report showing that cutting speeds to 20 mph does not actually, in fact, improve road safety.

Lee Waters AC: I fear the Member's career as a tabloid newspaper editor has escaped her. The idea that I 'hit out' is rather sensationalist, I think. I was expressing my frustration with some of the comments that have been made, which I don't accept the premise of. I understand the concerns, and we're working with them on it, and we're working to understand better some of the problems they're having. We know one of the major problems that bus companies have is reliability and congestion. The evidence we have so far is that a 20 mph speed limit will produce smoother traffic flows. Most of the delays are at junctions, and people speeding up and slowing down to get to the next set of traffic lights as quickly as they can is a considerable cause of local air pollution, as well as using fuel, and, of course, being a danger on the roads. So, if we're able to smooth the traffic flows, that should help bus companies.
We're also not entirely clear how accurate most bus companies' timetables are. They're saying we're causing delays to their timetables; well, in many cases, they're not sticking to their timetables at the moment, and that's largely because of congestion. So, there's a circular argument here.
So, we certainly want to work with them to understand it better. Where there are problems, we're very keen to look at road space reallocations. The creation of bus lanes and bus priority measures is a different way of achieving efficiencies for the buses without, as she suggests, having a speed limit that we know increases the chance of being killed if you are hit by a car—some five times greater at 30 than 20. The study she referred to in Belfast is not a comparable study to what we're proposing in Wales, and I was disappointed that the coverage of that really did not reflect the reality of it. But I'm sure if she was to study it, and to study our proposals, she would notice significant differences.

Natasha Asghar AS: Thank you, Deputy Minister. Believe me, I did study your interview, and sticking with the Sharp End theme here, Deputy Minister, you were asked if the people of Wales should expect to see more 50 mph speed limit zones—just like the ineffective ones already placed along the M4 at Newport, where I live—pop up across the road network. You replied, and I quote, 'Yes.' The 50 mph cameras in Newport, Deputy Minister, simply haven't worked. Heavy congestion still plagues that stretch of road every single day. I fail to see why on earth you'd even consider installing cameras elsewhere across the country when they do nothing to ease congestion and do everything to make motorists' lives a misery.Deputy Minister, is it not true that the imposition of unrealistic speed limits has less to do with cutting pollution and everything to do with forcing motorists off our inadequate roads to cover up your failure to provide Wales with an effective and efficient road network?

Lee Waters AC: Well, I do enjoy the post-match analysis of my interviews; it's always very good to get feedback, and, again, from tabloid newspaper editors. Perhaps she should be a tabloid tv critic as well; there are certainly other avenues open to her should she not decide her future is in politics, which would be a great shame.
The provision of 50 mph speed limits, as the Member knows, were, in many cases, court ordered because they were breaching air quality targets, and, far from her saying have proven ineffective, the reverse is true, as she well knows. They have proven effective in bringing down the pollution levels, as well as contributing to smoother flow of traffic. So, I'm afraid she is wrong with her facts, wrong with her analysis and wrong in her diagnosis of the motivation behind them.

Natasha Asghar AS: Thank you, Deputy Minister. I appreciate your call for my future career change, whereas I'm quite happy where I am. I plan on staying here for a very long time because someone needs to hold you to account.
In the same interview, returning back to Sharp End, Deputy Minister, you were asked if motorists across Wales should expect to see road charges introduced. Again, your response was, and I quote, 'Yes.' We on these Welsh Conservative benches have never been in any doubt that this Labour Government is anti-driver, but you have confirmed our worst suspicions with just one simple word, which was your 'Yes.' People across the country are struggling to make ends meet with the rising cost-of-living pressures, whilst at the same time you are drawing up plans to squeeze even more cash out of them. Deputy Minister, will you finally stop punishing drivers at every available opportunity and go back to the drawing board and rethink your 50 mph and road charge plans?

Lee Waters AC: Well, I can only assume that Natasha Asghar's researchers have the week off, but, clearly, she got a lot out of this week's Sharp End, which I'm sure they'll be very pleased about.
Now, the issue of road charging is simply a reflection of the fact that petrol tax will disappear as people stop driving petrol cars. It's her party's Government in the UK who has set a legal deadline to stop selling petrol cars, which I strongly support. That means, by definition, the Treasury's reliance on fuel duty to fund large parts of public services will have to be reassessed because people won't be buying petrol. So, some of form of road user charging is inevitable, and is, in fact, being actively worked on by her Government in London.So, whenever she comes up with hysterical labels to throw at me, she really needs to think beyond the soundbite to what she's saying, because this is something all Governments are doing, because, simply, the rules are changing. What we have said in our transport strategy is that we favour a benefits and charges approach, just as is being considered in Cardiff, where we do look at charging in some circumstances, but the money from that is used to pay for improved public transport and alternatives to the car. I think people would be willing to pay a charge, and certainly the polling would support that, if they felt they were given real, good quality alternatives to driving. That's what we're working on, and we're doing it carefully. But the idea of sticking to the current system simply will not fly.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Delyth Jewell.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you, Llywydd. Minister, I want to ask you about COP27. Developing nations were celebrating on Sunday morning, because, for the first time in 30 years, developed nations agreed to provide funding to help them respond to disasters related to climate change, known as a loss and damage fund. The agreement in COP27 was far from perfect, with several key elements missing from it. Some nations said that the commitment on limiting temperature rises to 1.5 degrees Celsius did not not represent any progress, and the language used on fossil fuels was weak. The loss and damage proposal did draw praise, but it is clear that climate change is causing damage now, as we speak. So, do you agree that what we should be aiming at, if truth be told, is avoiding and preventing disasters, rather than pricing them in? If so, what contribution will Wales make to these efforts?

Lee Waters AC: I completely agree with Delyth Jewell that the outcomes of the COP summit were disappointing and frustrating. The problems with these international summits is they inevitably move at the pace of the slowest, because there needs to be unanimous agreement. Clearly, a number of countries have their own reasons for slowing progress, and that, simply, is not going to be adequate to deal with the severity of the threat that the science suggests we now face from man-made global warming.
I think she is right that the one little bit of comfort was some support for the developing world—people, of course, who contribute the least to global warming, but are suffering the most the first. So, there's a real moral obligation on us, as an economy founded on fossil fuels to make a contribution, but, also, a strong self-interest. We know that levels of migration are set to increase as climate change hits, with people having been displaced from their land not being able to sustain a livelihood. They will be going onto other countries, and that will inevitably impact us. Even those who are not fully signed up to the science of climate change and fill our newspapers with warnings about migration should pay attention to the need to help the developing world mitigate the impacts to avoid adverse effects on things they care about further down the line.
The Welsh Government has been, for a number of years, working through our Wales and Africa project, in helping developing nations. It's an outstanding project. To give you just one example, in the Mbale region of Uganda, we're working with coffee farmers to plant trees. We've planted now 20 million trees since the project started. That not only helps give them a livelihood, but also stabilises their land from flash flooding that is produced by climate change, by using the trees to bind the land together. I've met a number of the coffee farmers, who are remarkable people. We need to understand the impact of our behaviour on their ability to live their lives.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you for that, Minister. Sticking with the COP theme, after COP27, it seems that Governments across the world have abandoned hope of 1.5—that chance of limiting global temperature rises to an only slightly catastrophic 1.5 degrees C above pre-industrial levels. That is escaping us. It's being written off in newspaper columns and government policies. It is slipping into the past—a future we might have saved for ourselves but we didn't manage to do it. And whilst the difference between 1.5 degrees and 2, 2.5, or 3 degrees can be measured in the number of extinctions, deaths and droughts, it can also be catalogued in the turmoil and despair of young people. What more can your Government do to retain that hope for young people in a world that's writing off their future? Can your Government bring its influence on keeping 1.5 alive?

Lee Waters AC: She is, of course, right to be distressed by the increasing likelihood that we're not going to be able to reach the target set in the Paris agreement, and I think people need to focus on what this means. When we have the world's scientists telling us that we are facing catastrophic irreversible climate change, we really need to sit up and take notice. We're going to have to account for our failure to act in the face of very clear evidence to our children and future generations. So, it's imperative that we fight hard to make sure that we do take meaningful steps now, not wait until 2030 or 2040, by which time it'll probably be too late as we'll have locked in embedded emissions.
To answer her question, 'What can we do?', I think we can show leadership, we can show other Governments that we are prepared to match our rhetoric with action. That's one of the reasons why we have commissioned the roads review. There are always difficult short-term trade-offs to face up to, and sometimes unpopularity, because change is difficult and painful, but the alternative is far, far worse.

Reducing Carbon Emissions

James Evans MS: 3. What has the Minister done to reduce the carbon footprint of her department in the past year? OQ58745

Lee Waters AC: The Welsh Government, along with other public organisations, has a responsibility to reduce its carbon impact and to act as a role model for others. Officials in our department have developed a net-zero strategic plan for the Welsh Government, which will be published before Christmas to inform future action.

James Evans MS: Thank you for that, Deputy Minister. We all accept in this Chamber that there is a massive issue with climate change, and no-one can deny that. Your Government often talks about tackling the climate emergency. Indeed, the Welsh Government refused to go to the recent COP27 in Egypt, as the Minister stated, due to concerns over the carbon footprint. That is a very moral decision. However, Welsh Government Ministers and officials this year have enjoyed a world tour that I think would put many rock bands to shame. You've been to Norway, Belgium, the United Arab Emirates, New Zealand, USA, Qatar, and I'm sure there are plenty more venues to come. Indeed, I have to tell you that some of these places are further away than Egypt, and, as a result, there will be a substantial increase in the carbon in the atmosphere. So, I'd like to know how you and the climate Minister can justify not going to COP in the light of the Minister's comments and all that the Welsh Government is doing to tackle the climate emergency.

Lee Waters AC: The ministerial code makes it clear that Ministers have to think carefully about the need to travel and whether or not there is a justification for it. Of course, there will be times when there is a justification for it. The examples that he chose were about pursuing trade opportunities, about developing relationships with other countries, and about telling people about the work that we are doing. There is a role for that, but we need to do it selectively. So, yes, Julie James and I decided it wouldn't be appropriate to go to this year's COP because it was not a decision-making COP, as last year's in Glasgow was. Instead, Julie James will be going next month to Canada for the biodiversity COP because we think we can add value to that in a way we didn't think we'd add value to the Egypt one, even though we were represented by officials. I realise the Member is interested in making a cheap point, but there is force to the argument that we need to be minimising our own carbon footprint and we should not be travelling internationally unless there's a strong case for it, as indeed the ministerial code makes clear.

Floating Offshore Wind Power

Paul Davies AC: 4. Will the Minister make a statement on the opportunities presented by the development of floating offshore wind power in Wales? OQ58727

Lee Waters AC: Floating offshore wind has the potential to contribute significantly to Wales and Great Britain’s future net-zero energy system and is a fantastic opportunity to bring social and economic benefits to our coastal communities. We are working closely with industry, the Crown Estate and the UK Government to make this a reality.

Paul Davies AC: I agree with you, Deputy Minister, that the opportunities presented by floating offshore wind are enormous. As you know, I am a supporter of the transformational bid for the Celtic free port, which I believe would play a huge role in developing a greener and more sustainable future here in Wales. Of course, it's vital that all marine development projects are strategically placed to protect marine species and support ocean recovery. Wales's first floating offshore wind farm, project Erebus, is being developed 40 km off the coast of Pembrokeshire. The developers, Blue Gem Wind, who I've met on a number of occasions, submitted their planning consent in December 2021 with a clear ask for a consent decision in 12 months to enable the project to compete in the next contracts for difference allocation round. Therefore, Deputy Minister, what assurances can you give to Erebus and all other potential floating offshore wind projects that decisions over consents will be given in a timely manner in order to enable projects to progress and so they don't actually miss out on valuable funding opportunities in the future?

Lee Waters AC: The Member may remember that, just under a year ago, I led a deep dive into renewables to look at what barriers were in the way of us achieving our ambitious targets. One of the recommendations we came up with there was an end-to-end review—if a deep dive can come up with an end-to-end review; you know what I mean, we're lost in jargon here—of the consenting process from beginning to end, to look at what was frustrating developers, and what was causing delays, and was there a case for example on looking at an evidence base collaboratively, which would save individual developers having to do it each time. This project was one of the ones that we looked at as part of that process. We've had the results of the end-to-end review, and we're now working through those in detail to see with NRW what we can implement to help schemes like this in the future. On this specific project, we are working with the project developers on the process for a marine licence. You'll understand that, as we have a role in the appeals process, I can't comment any further on it, but our officials are doing what they can, and of course, the developers also need to do what they can to meet the deadline that they've asked us to meet.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: There's been much focus, of course, on floating offshore wind. It feels a bit like it's the flavour of the month, but it's hugely valid, of course—nobody is challenging that—particularly with the focus on the Celtic sea. But we mustn't forget, of course, there's still huge potential to be realised from fixed-base turbines in the Irish sea. I see that as very much a key driver for the north Wales economy, particularly focused around developing a strong offshore wind presence at Holyhead. So, can you tell us what the Welsh Government's aspirations are in relation to the Irish sea, particularly post the Crown Estate's round 4 leasing, and what your Government is doing to continually promote those opportunities in terms of fixed-base turbines, particularly in the Irish sea?

Lee Waters AC: He's right, and we're interested in all opportunities to improve renewables capacity. One of the things we're also keen on is to make sure we have a supply chain and a benefit to the local economy, both through ownership and through manufacture. I've never found it fathomable why we are having German pension funds invested in wind farms off north Wales when we're not benefiting directly from the profit ourselves. That's one of the reasons why we've announced the creation of an energy company for Wales, to exploit the opportunities on the Natural Resources Wales estate. We are also—along with Plaid Cymru—working on a proposal for community energy. So, there is much work going on to exploit this. What we need to work closely with the UK Government on is an industrial strategy to go alongside the renewable plans. I raised this with Greg Hands when he was energy Minister, and this is something the industry themselves are keen on, because there is significant both energy potential but also employment potential if we get this right.

Rail Services

Adam Price AC: 5. What plans does the Welsh Government have to increase the quality and availability of rail journeys in Carmarthen East and Dinefwr? OQ58747

Lee Waters AC: Transport for Wales are increasing the number of rail services on the Heart of Wales line from this December from five services a day to seven. The refurbishment of the rolling stock used on this line has also recently been completed, providing an improved passenger facility.

Adam Price AC: I'm grateful to the Minister for his response. Of course, you and I will be very familiar with this line, as it travels through the middle of the town where we were educated. It provides a wonderful journey, of course, through mid Wales. But many of my constituents have been having poor experiences recently, in terms of regular delays, poor availability and poor reliability. During the past month, for example, I've been given to understand that one constituent had been left to all intents and purposes with his fellow passengers in Llanwrtyd Wells, waiting hours for an alternative bus service in place of that train. Another constituent had to cancel a holiday in Shrewsbury after a service was cancelled without notice. In addition to this, there are also problems in Ferryside with the other line, where the service travelling from Manchester to Milford Haven doesn't stop in Ferryside,althoughit goes through the village. So, could you have a word with Transport for Wales on both of those points?

Lee Waters AC: I was grateful that the Member wrote to me about his constituents' experience of being left behind in Llanwrtyd, and I hope he got my response on that. There have been problems right across the rail system. We've been particularly struggling with the legacy fleet of trains that are, many of them, not as reliable as we'd want them to be, and that has been causing impacts on the reliability of services. We are very hopeful that the new trains—one is already operating on the Conwy valley line, another is due to come into service on the Rhymney valley line early in the new year, and then they'll be cascaded throughout the year, which I think will make a significant difference, not only to passenger comfort, but also to capacity; they'll be able to carry more passengers.
We also are promoting the Heart of Wales line through free travel for concessionary pass holders between October and March, and we are looking as well at visitor opportunities around the stations when they get there. I'm meeting with passenger groups soon to discuss further opportunities for that.
On the communication point he raises when things do go wrong, I think it is a very fair point, and we know that there have been failures that have been raised in this Chamber before, with the poor communication with passengers. I will ask Transport for Wales to write to you further about that and the issue of stopping in Ferryside to see what more can be done for what is a legitimate grievance.

Samuel Kurtz MS: I thank Adam Price for tabling this question, because it's pertinent to my constituents too in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire, who, over the last few weekends, have been hit by misery and delay as they've travelled to and from Cardiff for Wales's autumn international rugby games. 'Exhausted', 'out of ideas' and 'directionless' were the words uttered to me by a constituent—not a description of the Wales men's rugby team after their loss to Georgia, but their account of the rail services in Carmarthenshire and south Pembrokeshire. Given this, Deputy Minister, what specific options are you taking to ensure that those who live literally at the end of the line get an equal and comparable service to those in the rest of south Wales?

Lee Waters AC: There were some difficulties after the Georgia match on the weekend because, again, of reliability of some of the rolling stock, and, as I say, we have got active plans now to replenish that in the coming months, which I think will make a significant difference. We are investing significantly in services, and we need that to be matched by infrastructure investment from the UK Government in the rail system. Rail infrastructure is not devolved, and as we have rehearsed in this Chamber, we are being significantly underfunded and not getting the benefits from HS2.
I was very disappointed to see the new Secretary of State for Wales, David T.C. Davies, who had championed this cause when he was Chair of the Welsh select committee, recognising the case with cross-party consensus on that committee, and I'm pleased to say, support now as well from the Conservatives in this Chamber for passing on to Wales the full Barnet consequential of the HS2 project. Sadly, as soon as he sits around the Cabinet table, where he is meant to be Wales's voice, he recants from that and makes the case for not passing it on on the basis that people in north Wales would be able to catch trains at Crewe, ignoring the fact that its own business case shows a significant harm to the south Wales economy from HS2, as well as the lack of investment that we'll have to invest in alternatives. So, I hope that we can continue to work on a cross-party basis to try and get sense in Westminster and to get the Secretary of State, both for Wales and for transport, to change their minds.

Jane Dodds AS: Good afternoon, Deputy Minister. I do just want to say very quickly that I recently had a very good journey with TfW, finding the ticket office staff very, very helpful. So, I know that they do work very hard, and I think it's important to put on record the achievements of many of those people. But I just want to raise another wonderful railway line, from Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth, with a little diversion to Pwllheli. Now, that route is just like going through Italy, it really is. You've got the sea on one side, you go over the Mawddach estuary, you see Barmouth, you've got wonderful Pwllheli to go up to. It is a wonderful railway route, but it just doesn't have enough trains to go on it. When I lived in Welshpool and would travel to work, if I missed the 6.30 a.m. morning train, there wasn't another one until 9.00 a.m. Now, we're not asking for a lot; we're just asking for an hourly train service along the Cambrian line. So, I just wondered, Minister, if you could tell us about any plans for that to happen, and when that might be the case. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Lee Waters AC: Thank you. Yes, there are particular challenges on that line, because only one of the trains that we have are able to use it. So, when there are problems with the carriages, it makes it very difficult to provide an alternative. As I say, as we cascade our new fleet of trains across the network, there will be improvements for, I think, 95 per cent of passengers and journeys, which will be a significant step ahead.
The railways are a challenge for us. They are an expensive form of public transport and carry comparatively few passengers. We have faced the judgment of investment in buses and in active travel to try and reach our modal shift targets, and, obviously, with inflation, the cost of running rail projects are also significant, as well as other delays being felt throughout the industry. So, it is a challenging situation and the progress is slow; everything takes forever, it does feel like, sometimes. We do have ambitious plans and we are implementing them, but there is scope to do far more, which is going to be harder to achieve with the cuts that we are now expecting from the UK Government. I heard the leader of the opposition say again yesterday that the Welsh budget's going to be better off as a result of the budget, completely ignoring the impact of inflation. We are going to be something like £3 billion worse off, not £1 billion better off, and that's not taking into account the £1 billion we've lost from European funds. [Interruption.] Janet Finch-Saunders gives her first heckle of the day to ask me to sell the airport. Well, a £3 billion shortfall is not going to be raised from a circa £50 million sale of an airport, and that's assuming that you can find a buyer for it.

Inner Urban Environments

John Griffiths AC: 6. Will the Minister outline the Welsh Government's policy to improve inner urban environments? OQ58752

Lee Waters AC: The focus of our Transforming Towns programme is the sustainable development of our town centres, supporting investments in our towns that are shaped by place-making plans and include green space, reuse of derelict buildings as community hubs and increasing the variety of services on offer.
I paid my first visit to the refurbished Newport market last week, after a visit with John Griffithsto open the secure cycle store in the heart of the centre, and, I must say, I thought the market was superb and I'm proud of the role that we've played, with the local council, in making that an attractive facility, which I'm told is packed on weekends. And for those who haven't visited, I would encourage a trip.

John Griffiths AC: Well, I'd certainly join you, Minister, in encouraging as many people as possible to visit the wonderfully refurbished and transformed Newport market. There is much good work going on in Newport. A further example, Minister, in Newport East is the Maindee renewal project. This has engaged local residents to transform the local area, which is a very busy urban environment with a lot of road traffic. As part of those projects, Greening Maindee is producing some really good quality green space to be enjoyed by the local community. There is a Maindee makers project that is reusing and recycling, producing things like portable flower containers to help with the greening effort, and the Maindee triangle, which is opposite the community library, has a cafe and a performance space, which saw the first ever Maindee music festival this summer. So, much is going on there, Minister, but there are ambitious plans for further work. And I wonder if you would consider how Welsh Government might continue to support this transformative work and hopefully visit the area with me to see first-hand the progress made, and hear first-hand the future plans, which I think would further transform that very important local community.

Lee Waters AC: Well, thanks very much for highlighting the great work going on in Maindee, John. I'm pleased that the Maindee Unlimited triangle project has received over £200,000 of Welsh Government money towards transforming what was a public toilet into a community hub and green space. That was through our community facilities programme, and applicants can submit up to three applications totalling a maximum of £300,000 in any three-year period. This means that Maindee Unlimited can currently apply for an additional grant of around £70,000 within the current window, and I'd be keen to work with him and talk to them about what other opportunities there might be to improve the area.

Tom Giffard AS: Swansea city centre has seen welcome investment from the local council, Welsh Government and UK Government in recent years, mostly as a consequence of the Swansea bay city deal. The investment, worth around £1.3 billion,has helped deliver things like the new digital arena in Swansea and other projects, with the aim of making the city a more attractive place for workers and employers. But constituents have contacted me about the disproportionate emphasis they feel that this and other funding has, having been aimed at the city centre specifically.Swansea is home to fantastic other conurbations, such as Morriston, Gorseinon, Mumbles and Pontarddulais, and in some of those areas, high streets are really struggling, and transport and infrastructure needs are not being met in the same way as they would be if they were in the city centre. So, with that in mind, how are you working with Swansea council and other councils to ensure that it is not just city centres that benefit from additional funding to improve urban areas?

Lee Waters AC: Well, I have been leading an exercise looking at what we can do to help town centres; what are the barriers to improving them? We all know, from our own areas, of the sorry state of many town centres and the huge pressures that are on them—pressures that are only going to get worse with rising energy prices. AndI am very concerned about the lack of an offer from the UK Government for businesses, for very significant increases in their energy bills. I was simply talking to a chip shop owner in Burry Port the other week, who tells me that their energy bills have gone up by 300 per cent. It's very hard to see how businesses like that can sustain those sorts of rises for very long.
So, I fear that we will have an even sorrier state of town centres over the coming months as businesses close down because they are not able to meet unsustainable increases in energy bills. I would urge the UK Government to put a package together to help with that.
We'll be publishing the results of the town centre action group recommendations soon. But, one of the things that we did look at was the experience of Morriston, as part of that work—the study done by Professor Karel Williams into the value of that very long high street, and actually, what local people value.Far from being infrastructure, of the sort that he mentions, what they found is that they valued social infrastructure. So, the state of the park, the state of the toilets—things that have been hit by austerity cuts significantly in the last 10 years, and will be hit even further by the austerity cuts that we are expecting as a result of the budget.
So, it's very hard to improve things when public services are being hammered, as they have been under this Conservative Government. But we have come up with a series of practical recommendations of things that we can do, working with local authorities, to help town centres rebuild.

Empty Housing Stock

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 7. What assessment has the Minister made of the amount of empty housing stock on public authority-owned land? OQ58730

Lee Waters AC: Thank you for raising this very important issue. The latest figures suggest that around 1 per cent of social housing stock held by local authorities has been vacant for more than six months.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you. Now, you don't need me to tell you that, across north Wales, we have a severe shortage of housing accommodation. During 2021-22, 1,126 people contacted Gwynedd Council because they were homeless—50 per cent more than in 2018-19. Around 2,000 are on the list for social housing in Conwy County Borough Council, and in Wrexham, the number of individuals classed as homeless has more than doubled to 2,238, from 2019-20 to 2021-22.
Now, despite people being so desperate for housing units, it is a fact that Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board has as many as 750 units of accommodation across north Wales that are not in use. I have raised it with the Minister for health; I have raised it also with the Minister for Climate Change. The Minister for Health and Social Services informed me again last week that the health board is now in the process of looking at procurement options to work with a partner for its residences. Now, I know from liaising with registered social landlords that these units could be made into viable housing stock, either for those in the medical sector, or, indeed, those who simply want a home. So, Minister, do you agree with me, given that I have raised these concerns now for—oh, I started raising them last year, when I found out that we had all this empty housing stock. Do you not think that it's unacceptable that there isn't some kind of partnership working now between the Minister for Climate Change, who is responsible for housing; the Minister for health; and whoever it takes, to get this empty stock back in as livable, warm, safe homes for all those many, many hundreds of people who just lie lingering on a housing waiting list? Diolch.

Lee Waters AC: Well, I appreciate you raising it, and it is a good question, and I thank you for raising it. You have written to us and we are working on a response and getting to the bottom of the situation in Betsi Cadwaladr. Of course, not all vacant housing stock in public ownership is available or suitable for letting: they may well be being kept for other schemes; they may be part of further developments. So, it's not a simple picture; that's why we need to try to get to the bottom of it. [Interruption.] Janet Finch-Saunders tells me it's a lot simpler than I think. Well, things may seem simple from the opposition benches; I can promise you that, in Government, things are often a little more complex than they seem. But she is right to raise it, we want to tackle it; we have ambitious plans to bring empty homes across Wales back into use.
I was involved in a pilot in the Valleys taskforce, based on an excellent scheme that Rhondda Cynon Taf have been running for a number of years of giving grants to private homeowners to bring empty properties back into use. Rhondda Cynon Taf again are showing great leadership in increasing the council tax on empty homes and recycling that funding into getting more empties filled up, and that is something other local authorities have available to them. They can increase council tax by 300 per cent on empty homes that have been empty for more than six months. Across all social landlords—local authorities and RSLs—something like 1,700 units were vacant for over six months, and of these 286 units were available for letting and were awaiting a tenant.
So, there is considerable potential there to try and quickly get these back into use, and we are providing over £24 million to purchase and refurbish empty properties, and a further £65 million in what's snappily called the transitional accommodation capital programme, to respond to this. We'll be bringing more than 1,000 additional homes into use over the next 18 months as good quality, long-term homes for people. But I will write to you once we have further information on the specific example that you cite.

Finally, question 8, Altaf Hussain.

Renewable Energy

Altaf Hussain AS: 8. What assessment has the Minister made of the potential of harnessing the power of the sea to generate renewable energy? OQ58737

Lee Waters AC: Thank you. There is very significant resource potential that exists in the seas around the Welsh coast to generate renewable energy. That's why we've established the marine energy programme to lead on our programme for government commitment to make Wales a global centre of tidal technologies.

Altaf Hussain AS: Thank you, Minister. Minister, as a country with a significant coastline, the opportunities to harness the power of the sea in energy production are vast, and while there have been some recent announcements, such as atMorlais in north Wales, I want to see greater ambition from Government, working with the Crown Estate and other key partners, to step up this ambition if we are to turn our energy production and economy towards a more sustainable future. One significant area is the Severn estuary, which has, of course, the most spectacular tidal range and tidal power, which remains untapped. Is it now time to revisit this with the UK Government and others?

Lee Waters AC: Well, I'm glad the Member mentioned the Morlais scheme on Ynys Môn, which is an excellent scheme made possible by European funding—funding that is no longer available to us, and which, despite the promise by the UK Government that we would not be a penny worse off, has not been replaced. So, our ability to do similar schemes to Morlais has been impeded by Brexit and the failure of the UK Government to bring forward an alternative scheme. James Evans may groan, but facts are facts, my friend, and there's a real-world consequence, which—. I'm in support of your colleague's call for us to do more to harness the power of the sea; it's his Government that is getting in the way of that. In fact, it was by reducing their incentive regime prematurely that it hampered the ability of the market to deliver on the targets we have, and that's why we've set up our marine energy programme, to bring real advantages to Wales.
To just loop back round to how we started the question, with the Morlais scheme, we should pay tribute to the huge leadership provided by Menter Môn, a social enterprise based on the island, who have driven this from the beginning, and the role of the community sector in working with Government to take forward these projects is of vital importance.

I thank the Deputy Minister.

2. Questions to the Minister for Education and Welsh Language

The next item, therefore, is questions to the Minister for Education and Welsh Language, and the first question is from Heledd Fychan.

Access to Education

Heledd Fychan AS: 1. How is the Welsh Government supporting learners in South Wales Central whose access to education has been affected by the cost-of-living crisis? OQ58751

Jeremy Miles AC: Our pupil development grant—access provides funding directly to eligible families for the purchase of uniform, kit and other school supplies. I announced an additional one-off payment of £100 to all children and young people eligible for PDG—access this year, taking funding to over £23 million for 2022-23.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Minister, I know that you recently visited Llanishen High School, where the cost of transport was raised with you as one of the barriers that has an impact on the attendance of pupils. This is an ongoing problem that's been raised with me, and something that you have previously said that you are working with the Deputy Minister for Climate Change on. However, I understand from the learners that the situation is getting worse, with more learners having been refused bus travel because they didn't have money to pay for the journey. So, what discussions have been held with local authorities in South Wales Central—namely Cardiff, the Vale of Glamorgan and Rhondda Cynon Taf—in order to ensure that the cost of the school day, including the cost of transport, isn't a barrier to all pupils attending school?

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you to Heledd Fychan for that supplementary question, and this is a very fair point to raise, and it is a challenging situation, as the Member said. I visited Llanishen school recently to discuss with a group of pupils, including a Member of the Youth Parliament, who had been undertaking research into the impact of this on the school, and who'd been looking at possible solutions. And it was a very beneficial visit and a very useful discussion, because I certainly understand the concern and the major challenges that families face in this context. Officials in the climate change department, who are responsible for transport, as the Member will know, have been in discussions with local authorities and with school transport providers across Wales, if truth to be told, to look at the cost of school transport in particular as local authorities continue to meet their statutory duties to provide transport. The increase in the cost of fuel has been a significant challenge to this. As the Member will know, the duty paid on fuel is not something that's been devolved. The UK Government hasn't taken action on that, unfortunately. We've written to the UK Government to draw attention to that. A review has taken place of the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008 recently, and it has demonstrated that there is a need to look further at some elements of that provision, and that work is currently taking place in terms of officials in the climate change department.

Joel James MS: Minister, as I am sure you are aware, disadvantaged children face a myriad of challenges that do not necessarily exist for most people. One such disadvantage is the availability of internet and appropriate devices at home. The Children's Commissioner for Wales has estimated that a third to perhaps even half of children do not have access to appropriate devices, and that, even when these have been made available, there is still the issue that households on low incomes are less likely to have internet connections. This is particularly true for rural communities, where sufficient broadband bandwidth is extremely limited, and therefore not really worth purchasing. Given the fact that home learning has become a tool adopted by schools to manage teaching during COVID lockdown—and I'm aware that many, if not almost all, schools have kept the system in place to continue to help provide additional learning support—what steps is the Welsh Government taking to work in partnership with local authorities and schools to help ensure sufficient devices with internet access are available for low-income households with school-age children? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Joel James for drawing attention to this issue. It was one of the key areas of priority for us during the COVID pandemic for the very important reason that he gives—to make sure that inability to afford digital equipment or connectivity didn't pose a barrier to young people being able to take advantage of the blended learning that was taking place at the time. We invested over £180 million to, if you like, futureproof our education technology infrastructure and make sure that it's available to every learner on an equitable basis. That involved 216,000 end-user devices and also connectivity. So, there will, I'm in no doubt, be examples where that remains a barrier, but our commitment is to make available that significant pot of funding to ensure that no learner is disadvantaged because of an inability either to afford computer kit or broadband connectivity.

Vikki Howells AC: Minister, I mentioned, during First Minister's questions yesterday, my recent visit to Capcoch Primary School in Abercwmboi to see the work they do to tackle child poverty, which has been praised by Estyn. Their interventions include things like a clothes exchange, a foodbank and an inclusive approach to school trips, which are all the more vital when we are facing increasing pressures on household budgets, which can pose barriers to accessing schooling. How is the Welsh Government promoting examples of best practice like this, so that schools can support learners and their families to mitigate the impact of the cost-of-living crisis?

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Vikki Howells for drawing attention to the good work happening in Capcoch school in Abercwmboi. The PDG—access grant that we make available in Wales has, I hope, made a significant difference to many families, at least many lower income families, around Wales, helping to remove some of the worry, at least, around, for example, the purchase of school uniforms, kit and other equipment. In addition to what I've just said in response to the earlier question, what we want to make sure is that children can both attend school and take full part in activities at the same level as their peers. That grant is now available to eligible children and young people in all compulsory school years. She'll know, as I mentioned earlier, that that has been increased during this financial year by an additional £100. But we are also looking at the use to which PDG funding is put generally. There are some really good examples—and she's drawn attention to some of them in her question—of schools using that funding in a very impactful way, and I want to make sure, as part of that review, that every head looking at how best to use that funding has access to a good evidence base, good case studies and best practice from elsewhere. And I'm sure that the work that she's drawn attention to at Capcoch school is the sort of thing that we want to make sure that schools everywhere are able to take advantage of.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I'd like to ask what support is available for students in further educationand other colleges that generally serve the poorest students, because of the breadth of their curriculum. The UK Government gave no money to colleges in the financial statement last week, even though they did give some money to schools. What can colleges in South Wales Central expect from the Welsh Government?

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Jenny Rathbone for that question. They can expect our commitment to further education to continue; I was determined that we would reflect that commitment in our budget settlement for this year. So, for the 2022-23 year, you will see investment of over £400 million directly to colleges for core provision and support, which is the largest increase, actually, in many years, and that was to reflect our commitment to the work that further education colleges do, in particular reaching parts of our communities that sometimes schools may not be able to always reach, because of the breadth of the offer in the way that she mentioned in her question. But my officials are working closely with the sector to identify the impact of the cost-of-living crisis and to look for opportunities to reduce costs to the sector through joint procurement, joint negotiation. I'll shortly be announcing further funding for innovation in this space, so that FE colleges can look at how they can deliver things differently, to release, perhaps, some longer term savings. And I'll also be announcing some further funding to colleges that will benefit learners who are most impacted by the cost-of-living crisis by means of an additional £1.3 million to increase the funding available for financial contingency funds, and an additional £2.5 million to contribute towards the increased costs of consumable materials, which are absolutely critical in the delivery of some of the vocational programmes that FE colleges deliver so well.

Face-to-Face Education

James Evans MS: 2. What steps is the Minister taking to ensure education is delivered in a face-to-face format? OQ58743

Jeremy Miles AC: It is vital that high-quality, face-to-face learning is maintained for all learners whenever it is possible and safe to do so. Any transition to remote learning should be the last resort and only happen in exceptional circumstances, such as, for example, where a health and safety or safeguarding risk is identified.

James Evans MS: Minister, I would like to thank you for your answer. I was deeply concerned to read that the Liberal Democrats in charge of Powys County Council are considering forcing children to miss one day a week of school in favour of so-called virtual education. I'm sure you'll agree with me that this puts a huge amount of pressure on parents and pupils. And I hope you'll also agree with me—and I got that from your answer—that face-to-face learning is absolutely the best thing for our children in terms of their development, their education and their overall well-being. Our children have had far too long out of the classroom due to the pandemic. So, Minister, will you stress the need with Powys County Council and the Liberal Democrats there that face-to-face education is the best thing for our children and that they should ditch this idea from their books?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I think, just for clarity, the proposal, as I understand it, was never formally made. It appears to have been a suggestion made in a committee discussion, which obviously has become a matter in the public domain, but it was never a formal proposal, as I understand it. Powys County Council have provided an assurance that this is not something that they are intending to pursue. My officials wrote to the council at the time that this speculation arose in the press to clarify the importance that we all attach to making sure that face-to-face learning is what we are prioritising throughout and we have the assurance that that is also what Powys County Council intends.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Laura Anne Jones.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Just a few weeks ago, the Minister announced the Unions and the World of Work pilot scheme—a policy that would see trade unions going into our schools, having direct contact with our learners. Llywydd, the Welsh Conservatives have no issue with children being taught about the workplace and, in fact, would actively encourage careers and work-related experience, however, it doesn't seem fair or proper that politicised trade unions that donate large sums of money to the Labour Party are allowed in our schools where they have the ability to influence. Political impartiality ultimately helps schools command the confidence of our diverse and multi-opinion society. Llywydd, can the Minister tell parents up and down Wales how allowing Labour Party donors into our classrooms supports this requirement for impartiality in our schools?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I think the Member has rather missed the point. What the curriculum is designed to do is to make sure that our young people have a rounded education and that they are ethical and informed citizens when they leave our education system, understanding fully the range of their democratic rights and their responsibilities; the importance of social action; their agency as individuals, together with the democratic and industrial history of their communities and their country. And the pilot scheme to which you refer is one running in 35 schools at the moment and is intended to equip teachers in order to deliver that part of the curriculum. I'm grateful to the Wales TUC for the work they have done to support teachers in order to do that. I know that she will also agree with me how important it is to make sure that we are providing teachers with resources and professional learning to discharge all parts of the curriculum, and this part is no different from any other.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Absolutely, Minister. I completely agree with what you're trying to do, however, let's take Unite, which are listed as contributors to be able to contribute in person to our learners. Unite have donated millions of pounds to the UK Labour Party—£33,000 to the Welsh Labour Party directly since 2020. The Minister himself is a member of Unite and received nearly £2,000 for his own personal election expenses campaign. This arguably casts serious doubt on the motives for Unite and others to be part of this project. Llywydd, quite frankly, this whole scheme stinks of cronyism. Does the Minister not see a conflict of interest here or does he not care?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I'm not sure the Member heard my previous answer. The purpose of this scheme is to make sure that young people are able to access the full range of the curriculum. As well as the broader objectives I referred to earlier, we are clear in our commitment to our young people to prepare them for the world of work, through careers-related experiences. We also want to make sure that they understand the world of business more broadly. It's a full, it's a rich curriculum, and it's completely appropriate that young people have access to all parts of it, as they work through their school journey. What we have seen is that understanding people's democratic rights, union membership, rights in the workplace, responsibilities in the workplace, is a positive in people's lives. And just like understanding the career trajectories that are available to them, also we want young people to understand the opportunities they have to join a trade union, to participate in that as part of the democratic process, to understand their rights and responsibilities. That is the purpose to which this pilot has been put. I hope and expect that it will be successful, and, if so, I look forward to being able to roll it out.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Llywydd, the new curriculum does provide wonderful opportunities to bring in local businesses. However, it deeply concerns me that the Minister is still putting in jeopardy school impartiality. This Government's first focus needs to be on getting the basics right here in Wales first. Wales has the lowest Programme for International Student Assessment results in the UK; teachers don't feel supported enough with the development of the new curriculum; pupils and teachers still have no idea what exams are going to look like; and teachers are dealing daily with violence in the classroom. I could go on. Minister, wouldn't your time and effort be better spent focusing on getting the basics right here in Wales in education first, before wasting money trying to indoctrinate our children any further?

Jeremy Miles AC: I'm not sure what point the Member is trying to make; what I heard was a list of criticisms of our school system. I think her time would be better spent, if I may put it to her, finding ways to scrutinise me in a way that puts forward a positive alternative. If she doesn't think what we are doing is in the interests of the school system, maybe she would like to advance a view of her own—a critique and a world view, or a single policy—but I hear nothing, week in, week out, from that part of the Chamber but negativity and an undermining of the work that teachers are doing in our schools. I hope that—. There was a point in time when she was a supporter of the curriculum and of the Government's reform programme; I would ask her to cast her mind back to that point. It's really important for our young people that we can make sure that the kind of cross-party support that our reforms have been able to command continue to do that—that's in their best interests. And we will continue as a Government to make sure that we prioritise schools, prioritise our education reforms, to make sure that every child in Wales has the best start in life.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Heledd Fychan.

Heledd Fychan AS: Diolch, Llywydd. I would like just to respond to that point. I think it is a positive thing if young people know their rights in the workplace, and I do not share the concerns. We all go as politicians to schools, and are able to talk about our values and differences as political parties, and this is part of that education process.

Heledd Fychan AS: After a decade of austerity, schools have made all of the savings that they can, and headteachers are warning that the only things left to cut will have a direct and significant impact on children and young people. A new survey by NAHT Cymru shows that the majority of schools say that they will have to make teachers redundant or terminate contracts due to a funding crisis. Around 73 per cent said that they will have to make teaching assistants redundant or reduce their hours, with almost half of schools saying that they will be forced to cut back on support such as counselling, therapy and mental health support. Furthermore, 56 per cent said that they will have to cut expenditure on additional targeted interventions for those pupils needing additional support, including additional learning needs. How will the Minister ensure that the current financial situation will not have a detrimental impact on learners, nor on the workforce in our schools?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, as the Member will know, we had an opportunity in last week's autumn statement to see budgets for public services, across the UK, responding to the challenge of inflation that has affected Wales and the whole of the UK generally. But that is not what we saw. We saw some increase in what we can expect, but it's nowhere near meeting the challenges that schools, and public services more broadly, face. And it certainly doesn't make up for the impact of inflation on budgets.
I have seen what the NAHT have said, and I have discussed that with them in a meeting and a joint meeting with other unions. We as a Government will prioritise public services. We will prioritise education, as we've always done. But the budgetary situation is very challenging. We have been working with local authorities to support them in their discussions with schools in making the most of what they have in reserves at the moment. Those are currently at a very, very high level, but that is not a sustainable solution. Of course, once that money has been spent, it's spent. But we are supporting local authorities in working with schools at the moment to see what best use could be made in order to avoid the worst of what the Member mentioned.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Minister, and as those conversations continue, we'd be grateful for updates, like those you do give, in terms of the vital support that is needed so that neither learners nor staff are detrimentally impacted, as far as possible.
Last night, Rhieni dros Addysg Gymraeg held a meeting in Rhondda Cynon Taf. They drew attention to the case of Jenna and David from Gilfach Goch, who face having to pay for transport so that their son can attend Ysgol Llanhari, following a change of policy by Bridgend council, which decided not to continue to pay for free transport to the nearest Welsh-medium secondary school, which is over the border in RCT. The council continues to pay to transport pupils from the same area to an English-medium school in RCT, namely Tonyrefail Community School. Rhieni dros Addysg Gymraeg's view is that this is an example of the Welsh language being treated less favourably than English, depriving communities such as Gilfach Goch of accessible Welsh-medium education.
So, what steps are being taken by the Government to rectify this and to ensure that children such as Jenna and David's son receive free transport to their nearest Welsh-medium school?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I thank the Member for raising that point. In terms of the broader point, the point that she makes in this context, as was the case with the previous question, is quite proper in terms of how important transport is to accessing education. But because of geographical distribution, it's particularly pertinent in relation to Welsh-medium education, as her question suggests.
There is an element of flexibility or discretion, if you like, implicit in the Measure, which allows authorities to make different decisions in this context. What is clear to me is that we must ensure, to the best of our ability, that the reforms to the Measure do tackle this issue. In the meantime, what I intend to do is to have discussions with all local authorities in Wales on their commitments in their Welsh in education strategic plans. And where authorities have a policy—and this happens in more than one area—that has the impact that she describes, on the boundaries between authorities, I will discuss that issue specifically with authorities and I would be happy to give the Member an update at the end of that process.

Education Maintenance Allowance

Adam Price AC: 3. What is the Welsh Government doing to support post-16 learners in Carmarthen East and Dinefwr who are in receipt of education maintenance allowance? OQ58748

Jeremy Miles AC: There is a range of additional support measures provided to post-16 learners in receipt of education maintenance allowance. These are measures provided by the Welsh Government through their college or school. These include free or subsidised travel, free meals, free period products, and access to hardship funding where available.

Adam Price AC: It is a cause of great pride for us in Wales that we have continued with the EMA, which isn't true of some other parts of the United Kingdom. But one thing that hasn't happened, of course, as the Minister is aware, is that we haven't increased the allowance in line with inflation since it was introduced in 2004. So, it has lost real-terms value over that time of almost two decades, and that has accelerated now with inflation increasing at such a rate over the past few months during the cost-of-living crisis.
The Bevan Foundation estimates that the EMA would now be £45 if it had kept pace with inflation. That increase would make such a difference to the 18,000 students across Wales who receive it. I know that money is tight, Minister. It would cost around £15 million, but it would be transformative in terms of its impact on students who are amongst those most deprived in our nation.

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, as the Member knows, and acknowledges, we do everything we can to ensure that the resources available are provided to help those who need them most in our education system. In terms of the commitment to maintain the EMA, that's part of our programme for government. And I'm proud that we have continued with that, as Scotland and Northern Ireland have done, but that's not the case in England. The level we have here in Wales is the same level as that of the Scottish and Northern Irish Governments. What we have endeavoured to do is to ensure that the reach of the EMA is enhanced. So, we've reformed the system, in order to expand the backdated payments available to individuals learners, and we've drawn that to the attention of colleges, so that they can inform their students of that, and, where there are particular circumstances for individual learners, those are taken into account in providing those enhanced payments. Also, in another area, we have expanded free school meals during school and college holidays and, as I mentioned to Jenny Rathbone a few moments ago, we've enhanced the funding available in the financial contingency fund. These are just some of our interventions in support of those individual learners who need most support in FE.
In terms of the costs the Member mentioned, as it happens, because of inflation, since the Bevan Foundation report, the figure could now be closer to some £54 in order to maintain value in line with inflation. So, the figure of £15 million is even greater now, and I know he will accept that, without additional funding, which hasn't come to hand, the only way to pay for that is to look at the other innovative interventions that we have in place as part of our programme for government and through the co-operation agreement too. So, these challenges are very real, but we will do everything we can within the budget that we have.

Samuel Kurtz MS: I'm grateful to be able to follow the Member's line of questioning with regard to EMA. Eighteen thousand, six hundred and fifty students accessed EMA support in the year 2020-21. As someone who was eligible for EMA as well, I know there are complexities in understanding how students are able to access this and which students are eligible, and, indeed, in talking to the Senedd research department in compiling this supplementary question, that complexity in finding out an accurate take-up number of those who are eligible for EMA and taking it up, and those, therefore, not taking it up, was hard to distinguish. Therefore, can I ask what the Minister and his Government are doing to ensure that all those who are eligible for EMA are able to access the support?

Jeremy Miles AC: As I was saying to Adam Price earlier—in response to Adam Price—although we've not been able to increase the value of it, we have been able to maximise the current offer. So, we've expanded the eligible cohort to include some of those most vulnerable young people in Wales, including some who are impacted by Brexit, family members of those with protected immigration status, for example, and, more recently, the expansion to include young people fleeing the war in Ukraine. So, we are looking always at ways in which we can make sure that the reach of the EMA, at its current level at least, is extended. We continue to allow learners to benefit from an extended period, as I was saying, of backdated EMA payments. We recently issued a notice to all schools and colleges reminding them of the mechanism by which that works, and highlighting the discretion in the scheme for learners with particular extenuating circumstances—caring responsibilities, for example—to make sure they are not disadvantaged in being able to access EMA. All young people can apply for EMA at any point in the academic year. Sometimes that isn't known; people aren't aware of that. And, where their family circumstances change, which may result in a drop in income, we encourage young people to apply for EMA with a current-year income assessment. So, we will continue to do everything we can as a Government, and I know that colleges are doing whatever they can to draw attention to the existing scheme to make sure the uptake is as great as it can be.

The Effect of Deprivation on Education

John Griffiths AC: 4. How will the roll-out of the new curriculum address the effect of deprivation on education? OQ58753

Jeremy Miles AC: Curriculum for Wales provides a rich and broad curriculum for every child, ensuring that every child develops the knowledge, skills and experiences that will enable them to progress to their full potential, regardless of their background. It treats every child as an individual, with different strengths and needs.

John Griffiths AC: [Inaudible.]—million pounds in this financial year in community-focused schools, given they build partnerships with families, communities and a range of organisations, and provide opportunities to pupils who would not otherwise benefit from them. In Newport East, Maindee Primary School is a fantastic example of a community school. It is based in one of the most deprived parts of Newport. It's multi-cultural, with quite a significant south Asian and Roma population. They have partnered with numerous third sector organisations, such as the Community Youth Project, Iqra Mosque, Positive Futures, G-Expressions, and Urban Circle, and all of these organisations are really enhancing the pupil experience and improving outcomes. Anna and Martine, staff members at Maindee, volunteer for FoodCycle, which cooks and serves hot meals to families of Maindee Primary School. It's really special, Minister, to see staff members giving up their personal time, given the pressures they have, to give back to the community they serve, and this undoubtedly reflects positively in the classroom. Maindee primary is also a DAF registered school, assisting families of their pupils in their discretionary assistance fund applications. Minister, schools like Maindee primary offer a beacon of hope to struggling, more vulnerable families with this holistic and community approach to education. What more can Welsh Government do to ensure all our schools in Wales are community focused, like Maindee primary, how can this be linked into the roll-out of the new curriculum, and will you visit to see first-hand, Minister?

Jeremy Miles AC: 'Beacon of hope' is exactly the right phrase in John Griffiths's question. I'm aware of the work that Maindee primary do. I've met some of the staff, and I would be delighted to visit the school to see at first hand the fantastic work that I know they do. The kind of work that the school does is exactly the sort of work that we want to see more and more schools in Wales supported to do. We want all schools in Wales to be community-focused school. That will look differently in different schools and in different communities, but, at its heart, it's about building a strong partnership with families, responding to their community, and collaborating with other services. I think the curriculum, with its focus on reflecting cynefin and the cluster working and the working to reflect the community of the school, provides a really good underpinning for this ambition that we have.
Schools have a critical role in enabling our young people to become ambitious, enterprising and ethical—all those qualities and characteristics that are at the heart of the new curriculum. The school is fundamental in that, but also young people are obviously very influenced by their home environment and the wider community as well. That is why working collaboratively, in the way John Griffiths was just describing the work at Maindee primary, that collaborative working, is so important.
I would just say that, last week, we published guidance on community-focused schools. It explains what a community-focused school is and why we believe that that approach is the best approach to support our children and young people. It was developed—and I thank all those who worked with us in relation to it—by Estyn, the National Academy for Educational Leadership, the consortia, local authorities, third sector organisations and others. So, that's now published. We will follow that up with a programme of professional learning to support heads and teachers in that journey. Crucial to this is multi-agency engagement, and we'll be publishing some supplementary guidance on how best to deliver that as well to reach our goal and to reflect the kind of fantastic work that John Griffiths was highlighting in his question.

Tom Giffard AS: We know that there's a clear correlation between poor academic performance and persistent deprivation. The Education Policy Institute said, and I quote:
'Persistently disadvantaged pupils experienced still larger disadvantage gaps, with those in England suffering a persistent disadvantage gap of 23 months and those in Wales experiencing 29 months. With little sign of these persistent disadvantage gaps closing...improving educational outcomes for the persistently disadvantaged should be prioritised by policymakers.'
While it's clear Welsh pupils in deprived areas suffer from a greater deprivation gap than their peers elsewhere in the UK, more needs to be done to ensure that the Welsh Government narrows this gap. So, how does the Minister's new curriculum address the gap that Welsh students face? And what steps is the Minister taking to heed this advice and ensure that gap is narrowed here in Wales?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, the report to which the Member refers was published following the statement that I made in the Senedd, I think, from memory—but somebody may correct me—back in March, and the speech that I then made to the Bevan Foundation in June, I believe, which sets out a full programme of interventions from early years to life-long learning to address some of the challenges that were confirmed to us in the report that he refers to. The curriculum has an important part to play in that. I think it will help us to meet the needs of disadvantaged and vulnerable learners, and that's been an important consideration in how it's been designed. Embedding that equity in schools is, obviously, critical, and I think that because the curriculum takes the learner where they find the learner, it enables us to provide bespoke learner journeys, if you like, which can better help us support the most disadvantaged pupils.
But he will recall, perhaps, if he's had a chance to remind himself of that statement and that speech, the wide range of steps that we've been working on. Some of them are to support schools to employ the kind of teachers that they need to best develop strategies to help those pupils that need most support. Some of it is around peer-to-peer support for school leaders. I'm about to announce some initiatives in that area. Some of it is about quite challenging discussions that we need to have around how we approach setting in schools. So, we're going to undertake a piece of research on that. That happens quite extensively in Wales. I think we need a discussion about whether that is the right approach in all circumstances. Some of it is about interventions around literacy and reading, which he will know, from reading that report, have been a particular challenge over the course of the last two years of COVID, for example. And, on the point I was making at the very start in relation to the effective use of school-based funding where that targets deprivation—so, in Wales, that's the pupil development fund—we are working with Bangor University at the moment to understand what works effectively, where it works effectively, and for the outcome of that review to be available to all heads so they can best use that funding.
But there's a wide range of steps that are already under way. I will be reporting to the Senedd with an update on that, I think in the new year. But the crucial thing is I think no one intervention is going to be able to address the issue; it's a range of interventions. And I would also say—and I think I'm right in saying the report acknowledged this—deprivation in society is not something that a school can entirely mitigate on its own. That's part of a broader strategy, but there is work that schools can do, and that work is part of that broader plan. It's under way and, as I say, I'd be very happy to give a more detailed update on that work in the new year.

Social Care Training

Altaf Hussain AS: 5. What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Health and Social Services and further and higher education institutions about developing training for social care professionals? OQ58738

Jeremy Miles AC: I have regular discussions with ministerial colleagues about education, training and development and their portfolios.

Altaf Hussain AS: Minister, we know that having the right number of qualified and well-supported professionals in the health and social care sector is vital for the delivery of high-quality services. Our higher and further education colleges are key to ensuring we can attract, inspire and train people in the range of health and care disciplines we need. They do a superb job. Looking specifically at further education, what more can we do to actually promote a career in care to those young people who are the workforce of the future?

Jeremy Miles AC: That's a really important question—thank you to Altaf Hussain for raising it. There's a huge amount of work under way to ensure that social care workers across the sector in Wales can receive the training that they need to do their jobs well, and that that is promoted to people as a career path. Social Care Wales, as the regulator, the body with responsibility for workforce development, works with higher education institutions, FE institutions and others on a range of matters in relation to education and training, but qualifications obviously are key to the registration of the social care workforce, which is an important part of our professionalisation agenda for the sector. We continue to provide significant funds to the social care sector for training and development, through the social care workforce development programme with Social Care Wales. You will also know, I think, that Qualifications Wales has also recently established a sector qualification group to examine health, social care and childcare in particular, to seek and to receive feedback around any gaps in provision, resolving any issues relating to the post-16 qualification, so that we can make sure that that is an attractive and popular route for young people looking at a profession in the care sector as an option, so that it's popular for them to take up.

Online Harm

Peter Fox AS: 6. How will the new Curriculum for Wales help young people to better identify, and protect themselves from, online harm? OQ58755

Jeremy Miles AC: Keeping safe online is critical to our children's physical and mental health. That's why digital competence is a mandatory cross-curricular skill and the health and well-being area has a focus on developing safe behaviour online. It's also a clear focus of the relationships and sexuality education code.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you, Minister, for your response. Minister, a Youth Endowment Fund report highlighted some concerning statistics: over the past 12 months alone, some 54 per cent of children and young people in Wales had experienced or had seen some form of online violence on social media. This has had a profound effect on not only the mental health and well-being of these young people, but their education and wider lives too. In Wales, 57 per cent had changed their behaviour and a tenth had missed school because of online violence. These numbers also help to back up many of the observations made by the Children, Young People and Education Committee in their report on pupil absence from school, which said that learners' mental health is a key factor in them missing school. The new curriculum is a welcome step in helping young people to better understand some of these issues, and the health and well-being area of learning and experience has the potential to be an important vehicle to introduce such issues in education settings. Minister, how is the Government working with schools to ensure that teachers and other education professionals are equipped with the skills they need to effectively discuss these difficult but important topics with young people? Does the Government have plans to help schools to better engage with parents and guardians so that they too are able to support children to identify and protect themselves from online harm?

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Peter Fox for raising this and for the way in which he's raised it. It's a very profound challenge, isn't it, and a challenge that many of us who are—considerably, in my case, at least—beyond school years find it hard to understand the scale of, really. But it is a very significant issue, and as Peter Fox was saying, the evidence given to the CYPE committee is very vivid in the scale of the challenge that young people face.
You mentioned the health and well-being area of learning in the curriculum, and that is fundamental to how we can teach young people to develop safe behaviours in relation to the online world. In many ways, so many aspects of our lives are now entwined with using technology that teaching that digital literacy and resilience is absolutely fundamental.
We have a dedicated single area on Hwb, the learning platform, called 'Keeping safe online', which provides learners but also, in the way that his question was asking about, families, practitioners, professionals and governors with a range of resources. That's where we make sure that all our resources in this area are hosted. Some of them have been developed specifically as a consequence of the work that we've been doing in relation to peer-on-peer sexual harassment in school. There are broader resources there as well, and that is about enhancing digital resilience across the life of the school generally, including obviously online safety but also cyber security and data protection. All of those aspects can have a significant impact, can't they, on the lives of young people.
Also, just to say, keeping children safe obviously is a part of the RSE code, and online safety in that context, dealing with issues around online bullying, for example. All of those are included in the code at a developmentally appropriate phase, handled in a sensitive way, and we will continue to invest in professional learning and support for teachers so that they have the best available resources for teaching young people in this area.

Welsh-medium Leisure Activities

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 7. What support is the Government providing to ensure that leisure activities through the medium of Welsh are available to children and young people? OQ58756

Jeremy Miles AC: We provide over £5 million to partners such as the Urdd, the young farmers and the mentrau for activities through the medium of Welsh. Last week, 230 children joined in the Urdd jamboree to celebrate the Wales team in the world cup, and I'll be continuing to emphasise the use of the Welsh language in all of my work.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: I think you meant 230,000 children, rather than 230.
I just want to highlight quite a serious issue, a case of a constituent of mine who has been waiting over three years for Welsh-medium swimming lessons for his children. A complaint was made to the language commissioner in 2017, and it was decided that the proper actions hadn't been taken. The council was given an order to provide lessons through the medium of Welsh. By 2020, that hadn't been provided, and there was another complaint. It was again found that the council has failed to meet language standards and had failed to comply with the action plan put in place following the previous complaint. We're now at the end of 2022, almost 2023, and they are still waiting. Do you agree with me that that is unacceptable? Because the only conclusion I can come to is that this is discrimination on the basis of language. I want to know what the Government is doing to ensure that local authorities like Wrexham County Borough Council do take this seriously, because Welsh speakers are missing out on fundamental opportunities that everyone else takes for granted.

Jeremy Miles AC: Can I take the opportunity to correct the record that it was 230,000 children? That's what I intended to say in my answer.
I just want to echo what the Member has just said. I am disappointed for this family and others, I shouldn't wonder, in the community who can't access Welsh-medium swimming lessons. We've prepared standards that place duties on local authorities to provide education courses through the medium of Welsh, which include specific standards for education courses aimed at young people. It's a matter for the commissioner to set the standards and to ensure compliance, as the Member acknowledges in the question. But, to be proactive from our point of view in this field, we do provide significant funding for partners, such as the Urdd and mentrau iaith, to provide leisure activities through the medium of Welsh, and we also provide funding to the Urdd sport apprenticeships, which focus on increasing Welsh-medium skills for sporting coaches in future. So, ensuring that people are able to provide these lessons through the medium of Welsh is an important part of that work, and that is one of our priorities in terms of funding.

Gareth Davies AS: I'm glad this question has been raised this afternoon as I'd like to applaud the work and efforts of cylchoedd meithrin, or Welsh-language preschools, in Denbighshire, north Wales, and across the country, who play a vital role in introducing preschool-age children to the Welsh language and provide educational and activity-based programmes to encourage the benefits of Welsh-medium education at an entry level and offer skills for life. Will the Minister join me in congratulating local and national cylchoedd meithrin and the roles they play in Welsh society for my constituents and people across Wales? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: I certainly will. They play an integral role in making sure that young people are able to access early years and nursery through the medium of Welsh. That is fantastic in terms of ensuring that Welsh language provision is available, but also supporting parents in making that choice for their children and also sometimes encouraging parents themselves to learn Welsh. We know that is one of the best possible ways of making sure that we meet our goals of a million Welsh speakers and making sure that young people and children get the support for the options they want to choose in this area. So, I’m very happy indeed to join in congratulating and thanking Mudiad Meithrin for all the work they do.

Teacher Training

Sioned Williams MS: 8. Will the Minister provide an update on any progress in attracting people to train as teachers to teach in Welsh-medium secondary schools? OQ58757

Jeremy Miles AC: We are progressing with our 10-year Welsh in education workforce plan, which includes developing and implementing a marketing strategy in partnership with the Education Workforce Council and the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol to encourage more Welsh speakers to choose teaching as a career.

Sioned Williams MS: Thank you, Minister. Can you explain what work is being done to identify those subjects where there is a lack of Welsh-medium teachers in the secondary sector? We understand that there is a serious lack in terms of those training in physics and mathematics, for example, so I’d like to know what the Government is doing to analyse the data to feed in to the work of attracting more students with degrees in those subjects to train as secondary teachers through the medium of Welsh. Who is responsible for doing that analysis, planning and monitoring? In terms of physics specifically, for the whole of Wales, only 43 per cent of those who teach the subject in secondary schools received training in that subject. So, can the Minister confirm the number of physics teachers trained in physics who are working in Welsh-medium schools? The incentive to teach physics through the medium of Welsh is £20,000—£7,000 less than the minimum one would receive in England. And the gap for those teaching in the further education sector is even greater: £26,000 in England as compared to only £4,000 in Wales. So, bearing in mind the need and demand, will the Minister tackle this deficit?

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank the Member for that important question. The data that we use is the foundation for policies in terms of financial incentives and the Member has already mentioned those. The comparison between what’s available in Wales and England isn’t appropriate, but there is support in Wales for subjects where there are shortages. In addition to that, there are additional incentives for those wishing to teach through the medium of Welsh. You mentioned incentives across the border. One of the things we want to see is those people who are Welsh speakers but are studying those subjects in England—that we work with the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol to identify those people and to communicate with them to persuade them to return to Wales to teach. I think that’s one of the creative things that came out of the work with partners and stakeholders as part of the 10-year plan. Some elements will be very successful, but we don’t expect success with all of the interventions proposed by the plan, so the important thing is that we continue to renew that and continue to look at the data, as the Member said, to see what makes a difference on the ground and what is most successful and to emphasise those. And if some elements don’t work, we’ll be willing to say that and focus on those that do work. But what we have seen is a very creative collaboration by partners across the system, including the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol, including the EWC and others, and I think the challenge is a significant one. The incentives that the Member mentioned are one element of that, but only one element.

Thank you, Minister.

3. Topical Questions

The next item is the topical questions. There is only one question that has been agreed this afternoon. It's to be answered by the Counsel General, and it's to be asked by Adam Price.

Adam Price AC: 1. What assessment has the Counsel General made of how the Supreme Court's judgement on the Scottish Parliament's intention to hold a second independence referendum will affect Wales’s ability to decide its own constitutional future? TQ687

Mick Antoniw AC: The judgment was handed down this morning. I will take time to study the judgment carefully.

Adam Price AC: Well, as we know, Counsel General, the Supreme Court delivered its verdict that the Scottish Government, despite the strength of the democratic mandate it secured at last year's Holyrood election, has no legal route under the current constitutional arrangements of the United Kingdom to hold an independence referendum if Westminster continues to withhold its consent. The Prime Minister of the United Kingdom has already stated in the House of Commons that he will continue to disregard that unambiguous mandate, even though you could say that his personal mandate is indirect at best and somewhat tenuous. And, really, what we have here, of course, is a Westminster veto, effectively, a clear crystallisation of the doctrine of Westminster supremacy that we, as a nation, and Scotland, as a nation, are not in a union of equals.We are not an equal Parliament either, and, unfortunately, of course, this situation will not change, even with a change in Government at Westminster, because the UK Labour leader has himself said that he will not agree an Order in Council, under section 30 in the case of Scotland, to hold an independence referendum either. So, that Westminster veto is being used by both Labour and Conservative parties at Westminster in this case.
So, does the Counsel General agree with the view that has been expressed today by the First Minister of Scotland that this judgment emphatically and unequivocally illustrates the fallacy of the notion of the United Kingdom as a voluntary partnership of equals, as a voluntary association? Now, the First Minister in Scotland has announced that she will hold a special conference to explore the means by which the next UK general election could be framed in Scotland as a de facto referendum. Now, this is obviously far from ideal, but it is the only route available to them currently, given the block on other routes for self-determination. As the Counsel General knows, there is a historic precedent in this regard, the 1918 general election, when Sinn Fein in Ireland sought a mandate and stood on a platform of establishing an Irish republic, and the landslide that they got through that referendum was the basis on which they established Dáil Éireann and declared the Irish republic, though, unfortunately, that mandate itself was not immediately respected with very tragic consequences that I'm sure all of us would wish had been avoided.
Does the Counsel General agree with the comments by Professor Ciaran Martin in the joint Senedd and Welsh Government lecture last night that all the nations of these islands should have a clear and legitimate route to express their desire in terms of their constitutional future, including the right to hold an independence referendum? And does he agree, whatever the judgment of the Supreme Court in terms of its interpretation of international law, that, politically, democratically, philosophically, every nation has the right to self-determination, that, as the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights says,
'All peoples have the right of self-determination'?
That has a particular urgency, you and I will agree on this, in the cases of countries that are colonised or subject to military occupation, absolutely, but the principle is an universal one that we must all, as democrats, uphold. So, does the Counsel General agree that that right to self-determination for Wales, for Scotland, for the people of the north of Ireland, should be enshrined and protected in law in the UK to address the democratic deficit that has been laid bare this morning in the judgment? It is particularly affecting the people of Scotland, given the very clear mandate that there is there, but it is of importance to us as well as we consider our constitutional future. Though you and I disagree in terms of independence, would you, as a democrat, express your solidarity with the people of Scotland and express the clear view of the Welsh Government that every nation, including the Scottish nation, and the Scottish people have the right to self-determination and that should be respected?

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for the question. Of course, yes, last night, I thought it was a very impressive presentation by Professor Ciaran Martin, following on from the previous presentation by Sir DavidLidington. I think these are very important contributions to our understanding of the constitutional issues that clearly do face us.
I think it's worth just being clear about, firstly, what the judgment was this morning. The judgment was a unanimous judgment of all five Supreme Court judges. It is a 34-page judgment, and I will be considering the detail of the judgment very carefully. The main question in the judgment was whether the Scottish Parliament had the power to legislate for the holding of a referendum on Scottish independence. Our role as a Welsh Government within that case was limited. It was not appropriate to intervene, so we carried out a watching brief. There will be a need to consider carefully, I think, all the findings of the Supreme Court and to consider all the submissions that were made, and the response of the Supreme Court to them. I can certainly assure the Senedd that I will undertake that task.
It's also important to be clear about what the conclusion of the Supreme Court was. The Supreme Court stated very clearly that the provision of the Scottish Independence Referendum Bill that provides that the question should be asked in a referendum would be, 'Should Scotland be an independent country?', and the determination of the Supreme Court was that that is a reserved matter.Now, as far as Wales is concerned, the position that we've taken is really set out within our reforming justice paper, which was published, I think, in June 2021, where it said that
'Future constitutional developments in the United Kingdom should be considered on a holistic basis and on the basis of constitutional principle, rather than by way of ad hoc reforms to particular constitutional settlements. This should be undertaken by a constitutional convention.'
Now, of course, we have our own independent commission; we've set it up very much to look at and to explore some of the issues that the Member has specifically raised, and perhaps I'll just remind the Senedd again of what the terms of the independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales is. There are two broad objectives: the first is to consider and develop options for fundamental reform of the constitutional structures of the United Kingdom, in which Wales remains an integral part, and the second is to consider and develop all progressive principle options to strengthen Welsh democracy and to deliver improvements for the people of Wales. Professor Ciaran Martin certainly raised the point that, constitutionally, there needs to be a route in which decisions can actually be taken, and I certainly hope that our own commission will actually explore what those are.
Now, you know that the position of the Welsh Government is that Wales's interests are best served by being part of the United Kingdom, but a United Kingdom that needs significant and radical reform, and those reforms are set out in the 'Reforming our union: shared governance in the UK' paper. I certainly am of the view that the best way of actually achieving constitutional reform and change is best achieved by electing a Labour Government across the UK in the next general election.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Counsel General, I hear what you say about your considered view. You will, obviously, sensibly read the judgment in its entirety. But, from your initial consideration of the judgment, are you able to confirm that the democratic will of Wales is not affected, and that no elections will be terminated by this decision in the Supreme Court, and that every time the independence question has been put to the people of Wales—most recently in the 2021 election—the party that made that offer came a distant third, and the people of Wales spoke with one voice saying that they wanted to remain in a strong United Kingdom?

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for the question. The judgment is very clear about the competence issue, and that is, really, the only issue that the Supreme Court has dealt with. It is clear and final in that respect.
In terms of the Welsh position, well, what we do have is a recognition within Wales, from the various manifestos, that there is a need for constitutional reform. There is a need for engagement within that, and the Government has made the case very strongly for the need for a constitutional convention. I've set out the position that we have from the reforming the UK decision there, but, of course, the one thing that we do look forward to—and I think that it's important not to, I suppose, presume what the conclusions will be, or the direction that will be taken of the independent commission that we have established, which will give us guidance and information with which to take this constitutional reform issue further.
Now, we are expecting, in due course, an interim report from the independent constitutional convention. And I think when that comes, that will be the appropriate time for us to have a more detailed, more thorough and, I think, informed debate on some of the constitutional options. Of course, the independent commission's report will be an interim one; there will also be a report coming out in due course from Gordon Brown on the Labour Party position on—or, certainly, the report that he has been instructed to prepare on constitutional reform. So, the one thing that we can say is that there is a deep recognition of the need for constitutional reform—that we have a dysfunction within our constitution, and that change needs to occur. The question is what that change is and how it should actually be achieved. This is a debate that isn't going to go away, and I look forward to the receipt of the interim report and any further reports, and to further discussions of this.
The reason that these constitutional issues are important is not because it is some sort of technical debate; the constitution is about how power operates, how it is shared, how it is distributed, how it is exercised. So, these are matters that are fundamentally important to the people of Wales and, indeed, to the people of the UK. But, as far as the decision of the Supreme Court is concerned, I think that that is particularly clear.

I thank the Counsel General.

4. 90-second Statements

No 90-second statements were selected this afternoon.

5. Motion to approve the Senedd Commission Budget for 2023-24

We move on to the next item on the agenda—item 5, which is a motion to approve the Senedd Commission budget for 2023-24. I call on Ken Skates to move the motion.

Motion NDM8137 Ken Skates
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 20.16:
Agrees the budget of the Senedd Commission for 2023-24, as specified in Table 1 of the Senedd Commission Budget 2023-24, laid before the Senedd on 9 November 2022 and that it be incorporated in the Annual Budget Motion under Standing Order 20.26(ii).

Motion moved.

Ken Skates AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I move the Commission's budget motion for 2023-24, and ask thatit be incorporated into the annual budget motion. As you will have seen in the budget document, the Commission is seeking a total budget of £67.643 million, comprising £41 million for Commission services, £17.8 million for the remuneration board’s determination, £101,000 for the office of the standards commissioner, £547,000 for costs associated with providing support to the independent remuneration board, and £8 million for interest and non-cash items. The total budget represents a 4.06 per cent increase on the current year’s budget.
Now, as Members will know, the 2023-24 draft Commission budget was laid on 28 September. It was then scrutinised on 5 October, and the Finance Committee's report was published on 21 October. To meet the requirement of Standing Orders to lay the Commission's draft budget by 1 October, work to prepare and develop the budget was carried out during the summer term and then finalised in August this year.In parallel to this timeline, unprecedented political and economic events have meant that the resulting budget has been overtaken by the emergence of a new reality regarding public finances. Although it's too early to assess the full impact on the Welsh public purse of the UK Government's autumn statement, we note the increase of £1.2 billion in the Welsh block over the next two years.The increase of 4.6 per cent in resource funding between 2022-23 and 2023-24 is, however, far below inflation, and this may impact significantly on the Welsh Government's ability to support the most vulnerable in society and secure the short-term future of the vital public services on which we rely. The Commission therefore now considers that its 2023-24 4 per cent budget increase will require revision to reflect the additional pressures facing the entire wider public sector in Wales.
In light of this, I will commit to an in-year review by the Commission, as a responsible public body, to find savings and to accelerate efficiencies. This will reflect the reality that we face today, rather than that which existed during the budget-setting process over the summer. It is an exercise in responsible and agile pragmatism.We had already committed to carry out this work in time to incorporate it into the 2024-25 budget, but I am now proposing that work is brought forward at a faster pace. This is in line with the Finance Committee's statement of principles, which states that directly funded bodies should continually seek to improve processes and accrue efficiencies.
Now, we are determined to ensure that any planned activities and services to Members are both efficient and sustainable. It's important for us, therefore, that any reductions are conducted effectively, and continue to support our commitment to effective workforce planning and well-being. This, however, will not be an easy task and will impact on Members. I've shared my proposals for savings and accelerated efficiencies in a letter to the Chair of the Finance Committee earlier this week, and stressed that we will be required to take extremely difficult decisions. We hope that Welsh Government and other public bodies will follow this responsible principle in the weeks to come, as savings are sought, to adapt to the more severe economic landscape that has very recently formed.
Returning to the substance of today's budget motion, the Commission exists to support the Senedd and, of course, its Members, and the pressure on Members remains significant. We've prepared a budget that we think is transparent and fair. We've seen some unavoidable budget increases—for example, to meet increased utility costs. We've sought to make savings elsewhere to mitigate the full effect of these price rises. You'll also see that we have explicitly identified the budget to meet the estimated costs of Senedd reform. In order to be ready to support the potential increase in Members from 2026, work needs to start now, and the budget for 2023-24 recognises that we will need to bring in new skills and additional resource to meet this challenge robustly and properly.
Now, the new normal is still emerging from the pandemic, but it is clear that staff are working effectively in this hybrid environment. We continue to engage with staff to monitor health and well-being, and we've invested in flexible office space for Commission staff, so that everybody working on the estate is still able to do so easily and safely. I'd like to thank the Finance Committee for its scrutiny of this budget, and its continued commitment to ensuring the budgets are set at an appropriate level, whilst continuing to ask challenging questions, which help us drive performance and deliver excellence.
Now, the committee made eight recommendations, which we have addressed in our response. The first was that the Senedd supports this budget, which we note and appreciate. Four were focused on the Senedd estate, one looking at how we can mitigate the ever-increasing utility costs in the short to medium term, and then, longer term, giving consideration to our future requirement for and use of building space—those in Cardiff Bay, and elsewhere in Wales. The Commission will look to implement measures to reduce usage and, ultimately, cost, by taking many of the steps we'll be taking in our own homes. With regard to the longer term estate strategy, a working group is being formed to consider what our future needs look like, including the impact of Senedd reform, and to consider what options best meet those needs.
Two recommendations were focused on staff well-being, specifically how Commission staff are being supported during the cost-of-living crisis. The Commission already offers a number of programmes and mechanisms to offer support, and these are regularly reviewed with our trade unions. The final recommendation sought to engage Members, to gain their views on the work they would like the Commission to take forward and how that work can be managed within existing budgets, or, indeed, incorporated into future budget proposals. We have accepted these recommendations, and we are, as ever, open to suggestions on how to improve the budget process. We're also willing to answer any questions that Members may have. In the meantime, I present this budget forward, on behalf of the Commission, and reiterate our commitment to working in a way that is open and transparent, delivering the best possible value for money for the people of Wales.

I call on the Chair of the Finance Committee, Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Before I begin, I would like to thank Ken Skates, the Senedd Commissioner for budget and governance, and Senedd officials, for attending the Finance Committee on 5 October to discuss the Commission’s proposals, and for the additional information provided shortly after that meeting. I would also like to note at the beginning of my contribution that the scrutiny of this budget was difficult for the committee in the context of the shifting economic picture and uncertainty regarding funding. In particular, and as the Commissioner has alluded to, the financial context has also changed significantly since the Commission laid its draft budget on 28 September. We are therefore grateful to the Commissioner for the letter issued earlier this week, confirming the Commission’s intention to undertake an in-year review to find savings.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: The committee considered the Commission’s draft budget, and published its report on 21 October. We found that the Commission developed its budget proposals in a prudent manner and, as a result, we recommend that the Senedd should endorse the budget before us today.
However, as the commissioner has mentioned, public sector organisations across Wales will face even more difficult financial decisions following last week’s autumn statement, and the committee believes that the Commission should not be isolated from such considerations. Therefore, I note the commissioner’s commitment to reflect on the content of that statement to ensure that its proposals for the next year remain proportionate.
I also welcome the commissioner’s assurances about engaging with the committee on the issues, and look forward to hearing more about its plans so that they can be scrutinised, considered and assessed as soon as possible.
I'm glad to say that the committee has a constructive relationship with the Commission, based on open dialogue, which you want to see continue as we embark on these discussions. However, although I accept that the realities we face today are different to the context that existed during the budget-setting process over the summer, it is regrettable that these issues have only been identified now, outside of the usual financial procedures that govern the scrutiny of the Commission’s budget. The Finance Committee does not take kindly to such procedures being undermined. It can weaken scrutiny and lead to poor outcomes. We therefore wish this to be a one-off, and that lessons are learnt so that the situation is not repeated in future years.
Turning now to our report, the committee’s overall support for the Commission’s budget is caveated by eight recommendations, which are intended to ensure that as much transparency is provided relating to the Commission’s proposals. I have received the Commission’s response to our report and am pleased to see that six of those have been accepted and two have been noted.
Firstly, the committee is deeply concerned by the impact of rising utility costs on the Commission’s budget and its ability to deliver its core services—an issue facing all public sector organisations, businesses and households across Wales. Although we welcome efforts by the Commission to explore options that keep utility costs as low as possible, we believe that further information about the effectiveness of such initiatives is required to ensure that the Commission is on the right track in reaching its sustainability goals.
Dirprwy Lywydd, I'd like to turn now to some specific issues. Clearly, the biggest organisational challenge facing the Commission over the next few years is delivering proposals relating to Senedd reform. We also understand the difficulties faced by the Commission in providing clarity relating to the associated funding, and in separating its ongoing costs from the investment needed to support the change. We therefore welcome the inclusion of a dedicated budget line for Senedd reform in the draft budget, and note the Commission’s intention to provide as much transparency as possible in presenting costs attributable to these plans in future budgets.
Turning now to the workforce pressures, the rise in living costs will have an impact on us all, but the committee is concerned by its impact on the Commission staff, particularly those on lower grades. We are pleased that all Commission staff receive the living wage and that solid initiatives are in place, but the Commission should not rest on its laurels. That is why we would like to see the Commission looking at ways it can provide additional support to staff who are struggling, and that steps are put in place to rigorously evaluate the initiatives already in place to ensure that the support provided reaches those who need it most. I was also glad to see that the Commission will not consider staff redundancies as a cost-saving measure as part of the in-year review it has promised.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: To conclude, Dirprwy Lywydd, the context in which this budget was produced and scrutinised has been very difficult. As a committee, we understand that all public bodies are facing significant challenges in delivering services within their budgets. As a result, it's more important than ever that the Commission’s proposals are proportionate, justified and transparent. Whilst we believe that the Commission’s budget for the next financial year achieves this, we also note the commitment made to review these proposals in light of last week’s autumn statement. We look forward to working with the commissioner as he seeks to achieve this. Thank you very much.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. And can I thank the commissioner for his statement? I would just like to clarify that, whilst I'm responding to this in my position as the shadow Minister for finance, I am, of course, also a member of the Finance Committee. I welcome the commissioner's overall approach to setting this budget. I think he's been constructive, and has engaged well with the Finance Committee and Members during the process, and I thank him for that.
Presiding Officer, I appreciate that the current national financial environment is difficult, and this, as outlined by the Commissioner, will have an impact on the Commission's budget. But I do think that some flexibility could have been built into the Commission's budget-setting process to allow it to properly consider and account for the autumn statement in its proposed budget, so that we, as Members, could scrutinise a full budget and have a say on where efficiencies could be made. At the moment, we're voting on the budget whilst relying on the letter provided by the Commissioner to the Finance Committee. This is unusual, but I recognise the time frames in play. But I welcome the commitment.
Moving to the budget, I acknowledge that the Commission, much like public bodies, is facing pressures as a result of inflation. On the whole, I think it has done a decent job to limit the increase that it is asking for. Energy costs have a considerable impact on the budget, as we know, but I do wonder, when looking at making efficiencies, whether more can be done to reduce energy costs further, and what further plans the Commission has to look into this. I understand that the Commission has taken steps to turn down thermostats across the estate—I felt that in my office today; that's a fact. But should we, for example, possibly, look at lowering them a little further, whilst maintaining comfortable levels, or turning off the heating in unused rooms? What about things like solar panels on our estate? In the budget report, there is reference to the Senedd estate joining the Cardiff district heat network from 2024. Is there scope to join this sooner? And have the Commission analysed how much money this will save, and, if so, has this been accounted for in its future budget projections?
There's also a question as to how the estate is used. Many employees are still working from home for at least some of the week, and so it's right that the Commission considers how the estate can be used more efficiently. Again, I would like to ask the Commissioner whether there are additional savings that can be found by using some of the Welsh Government space in north Wales in different ways. Has this been considered and factored in? Or has the Commission looked at other possible locations for its offices that would be more cost effective than the Welsh Government option? It's also my understanding that the broadcasting contract is soon to be going up for renewal, yet the projected budget for this is near enough the same as previous years. Can I ask for an update on this work, as it could allow for additional savings to be found?
I do have to mention Senedd reform, where the budget increases by £571,000 to undertake preparation. I know the rationale, but, given the financial context that we've been speaking about, this is a significant sum of money, which, it can be argued, could be better used elsewhere, such as supporting staff members or being used for energy costs. What does the Commission envisage using this budget for? And has it looked into reducing some of this work, as much as is practicably possible, so that the money can be diverted to where it is needed most?
Finally, Deputy Presiding Officer, as well as making efficiencies, the Commission could really look at boosting its income. Currently, there is a £200,000 budget for engagement activities, yet the Senedd shop only brings in around £20,000 a year. Surely, if the engagement and outreach strategies were working well, then sales would increase. Clearly, there needs to be some consideration of how that is all working. Therefore, what consideration has the Commission given to diversifying its income streams, so that it can top up its budget and is less reliant on external funding? Thank you, Deputy Llywydd.

Mike Hedges AC: Can I thank the Commissioner for his statement? And I very much welcome what he's said today, although, in one respect, I don't, because it's altered exactly what I was going to say in my speech this afternoon. I was a member of the Finance Committee that scrutinised the budget of the Commission. On the information before the Finance Committee, the decision made was, I believe, the correct one. I would like to highlight two recommendations: the committee recommends that the Senedd Commission adopts a collaborative approach to reducing energy use on the Senedd estate and engage with the Members, their staff and Commission staff to gather ideas and to plan and implement projects and policy that will meet these aims. I only use my office here for two days a week. There does not need to be heating in that office outside Tuesday and Wednesday. In fact, I'll go even further: there need not be heating in that room outside 10 o'clock on Tuesday and Wednesday lunch time. So, these are the things where we need to look at what can we do to help, rather than say, 'It's the Commissioners' fault', or, 'It's somebody else's fault.' What can we do?
Energy use has got to be reduced, and I hope the Commission approves a plan to reduce energy use, but I also hope all Members here will make suggestions like mine of what can be done when they aren't using their offices. Some people use their offices or have staff in their offices all the time, and that's perfectly within the rules and right, but for those of us who don't then there are savings to be made.
I would also like the Commission to consider the financial and operational benefits or otherwise of purchasing the freehold of Tŷ Hywel as an alternative to extending the current lease. I'm very concerned that we seem to be stuck on a lease here that is going to last us forever. Some of us wanted to use the Guildhall rather than Tŷ Hywel back in the day. We were unsuccessful with those arguments, and I'm not going to reopen them. But if we're going to stay here, buy it. It's going to be a lot cheaper in the long run.
Finally, a two-tier budget process: I think that is something that is fundamentally wrong. We set the budget via this system for the Senedd Commission, the auditor general and the ombudsman. They're funded by the Senedd as a whole from Finance Committee. They're not compared with, 'Would it be better to spend this money on health, would it be better to spend this money on local authorities, would it be better to spend this money on environmental matters?' They're being judged against an absolute of what they're asking for. I don't think that's the right way of going about it. I don't think it is being fair to other services, and it's also unfortunate—I'll talk about the auditor general and ombudsman—that they go in and look at authorities and organisations that are short of money, but they're not short of money themselves, so they cannot understand the problems that exist with those organisations. My expectation is, apart from health, all other public services will be treated less generously than those who have their budgets from the Senedd directly.
This is a question for all parties: is the current method of funding the Commission, ombudsman and auditor general fair? If we're arguing them against health or local government, they certainly wouldn't get the level of support that we're providing them with at the moment. Should the Senedd set a percentage increase for each prior to the Finance Committee examining their budgets, so all we're looking at is how they're getting down to that number and not the amount they're asking for?
I've raised this many times in the past, but I seem to be pushing more at an open door this time, so I'll labour the point. I've previously requested at probably nearly every Commission budget that the Commission budget is increased by no more than the increase in the Welsh block grant. If the Commission increases by more, it looks as if we are putting ourselves ahead of Welsh public services that people depend on.
I will now say something even more controversial: do we need the remuneration board? Can we afford it? Is it a good use of scarce resources? Are there other methods of doing what the remuneration board does at much lower cost? We've already set our salaries as relating to increases in pay in Wales, and I was very much in favour of that when it was done, and I think most people here are, so we're treated no less favourably than the people of Wales.
We keep on having these expensive organisations, and the remuneration board is one, which take money away from our key services. So, Deputy Presiding Officer, I know we can't decide to close the remuneration board today—though if I thought we could and I thought I could get a vote on it, I would put it forward—but can we ask that it's looked at so that we can see if we can do without it? It costs us an awful lot of money, which I could think of a lot of better ways of spending.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I also want to thank my colleague Ken Skates for putting together a budget. It's never easy doing that, certainly not when none of us know the ever-increasing costs with energy and the cost-of-living crisis. It's probably one of the hardest budgets you've had to put together, not helped of course by Senedd reform.
I'd also like to take this opportunity to thank all our Commission staff that have helped behind the scenes, but also for the work they've done to support us as Members. In light of current inflationary pressures and the cost-of-living crisis affecting families across Wales, it's more important than ever that we, as a Commission, take difficult but necessary decisions and ones that help to maintain the confidence of the public. Whilst we are all here to scrutinise and challenge the spend of the Welsh Government, it is vital that we do this in the most efficient manner. During the cost-of-living crisis, the additional expenses incurred as a result of preparing for an increase from 60 Members of the Senedd to 96 in 2026, I’m not too convinced is justifiable to the Welsh public. I know that there’s a mandate now, that there are enough votes for that, but I’m still going to have my say here today.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: We have to make sure that we offer value for money to the taxpayer as an institution. In particular, many of the costs associated with Senedd reform, including the £100 million price tag on 36 more Members of the Senedd, are impossible to justify in the current economic environment. The expansion needed in office space, extra staffing and other associated costs can’t even begin to be imagined, and the actual wording of our budget leaves the door open to vast increases in new spending to cover any ensuing costs that we cannot support. As we face the strains of the cost-of-living crisis, it is only fair that the Senedd Commission should reflect this in its budgeting processes—and really good contributions all round from everybody who has spoken before me. We’re all aware of our rapid increases in energy bills, but for me, right from when I came to this place, I’ve always felt that it was incumbent upon the Commission to deliver the support for us as Members in the most efficient manner.
We know that there have been the increases in energy bills, we know there are different models of working now, in terms of a lot of Commission staff still working from home because of the pandemic, and one of the largest increases seen in this 2023-24 budget is in our utility costs. As Ken Skates has already documented in his letter to Peredur Owen Griffiths, the budget documents an increase from £582,000 in 2022-23 to an estimated £1.25 million cost in 2023-24. I note that the Finance Committee recommends that the Commission should fund in-year pressures on the budget, and it should have control by making in-year savings and efficiencies rather than through supplementary budgets, and in the name of fiscal responsibility, this is something that I too support. The Commission simply cannot expect a supplementary budget whenever difficult decisions about finance have to be made. The committee also notes in its recommendations that the Commission should not assume an increase in funding from one year to the next. At a time when the general public are having to find difficult savings, it's only right that, as a Commission, and as an institution, we lead by example.
Now, I’m reassured to see a commitment to support staff who may be struggling with higher bills through the hardship fund and other such schemes, but I was shocked to learn in the first instance that that would be for Commission staff, and that Senedd support staff may not—that was a decision for the remuneration board. I’ll come to the rem board in a minute. But in summary, therefore, the Commission budget has to make provision for the Senedd to carry out its essential work, making provision for the most vulnerable members of staff, and encompassing the whole length and breadth of Wales. Rising costs largely driven by the desire to impose a larger Senedd mean that we do not believe the Commission budget lives up to the current challenges of the moment. Instead, we are simply firefighting potential costs and burdens that I believe have been placed upon us by, obviously, this Welsh Labour Government, supported by Plaid Cymru. But the impact it’s having on our budgets, when one considers that the next electoral period starts in 2026, and here we are now, in 2022, being affected.
But to the rem board. A lot of Members have actually raised the kind of concerns, Mike, that you have: where’s the transparency? Where’s the accountability of the remuneration board? When I first became a Member here, I was aware the rem board was in place, and it’s all part and parcel of the make-up of the Senedd, but I do honestly believe that now is the time for us to have some difficult discussions about how well the rem board is supporting Members and how well its own processes—. Too often Members feel that decisions are taken without their input, without taking them along with them or explaining them, even, and too often Members feel that things are done at them rather than with them. I honestly think this is going to be a difficult discussion to have, but I think it’s one that needed raising because Members have raised quite a few concerns about the rem board. So, thank you. Diolch yn fawr.

I call on Ken Skates to reply to the debate.

Ken Skates AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and can I thank Members for their contributions? There were a number of similar themesraised by Members, and I'll try to address each one. First of all, I should say that I would agree entirely with Peredur Owen Griffiths that we should not and cannot allow this year's process so late in the day to be repeated, but surely, as Peredur himself acknowledged, we will never see such shifting landscapes whilst we're setting a budget. These have been unprecedented times. We surely will never see three changes of Prime Minister during the budget-setting process, three changes of Chancellor, a mini-budget, an autumn statement, and the economy falling into recession. So, I would hope that this will be exceptional, but I also think that it is responsible for us to be making the pledge to find valuable in-year savings, and I thank Members for highlighting some of those measures that may be agreed as we consider how we can make cost savings in 2023-24.
In terms of the overall budget, one of the challenges that we have in the Commission is that we have barely any discretionary spend. Essentially, we spend the budget on people and on the places, and there is barely any money left over for us to invest in some of those measures that have been raised today by Peter Fox, for example, of photovoltaic solar panels. That forms part of the project fund. So, in making the savings that we have pledged, we are going to have to make some very difficult decisions about some of those energy-saving measures that we had planned within the project fund.
That said, we have already made good progress in terms of savings on utility costs. It's been recognised that we have reduced the temperature here, and I should say to Members that that will result in a 10 per cent saving. But every single Member in the Senedd has controls in their office that they can use to further reduce the temperature. Personally, I like to work in Arctic conditions. I'd be quite happy to be Bob Cratchit, quite frankly, but Members themselves can turn down the temperature, and I would encourage them to do so in order to make savings. Systems can be turned off. Entire zones can be turned off, and will be turned off. We may have to make the difficult decision about closing buildings if we are to achieve even deeper savings, and that is because there is such little discretionary spend. We're making a 5 per cent saving, or more, by switching off heating to areas we know are unused on certain days, and these measures will continue through the course of the next financial year.
Dirprwy Lywydd, if I may, I will highlight some of the other possible areas for savings—

I will give you some flexibility, Commissioner.

Ken Skates AC: —in brief. I've mentioned solar panels. Training and engagement, we will look at. We will be looking at savings through the catering contract, or, as an alternative to savings, we will look at raising revenue, perhaps increasing the prices for Members. We will also be looking at reintroducing car parking charges, reflecting on the need to protect the least well paid. And therefore, again, it will be Members, in all likelihood, that could pay more for car parking, but I'm sure, given the sentiment that we've had today, that would be welcomed.
We will be closing the north Wales office in 2023 and relocating it to co-locate with the Welsh Government at Llandudno Junction, and I take an intervention.

Darren Millar AC: This is an important—

[Inaudible]—Darren, but please be short because we're out of time.

Darren Millar AC: I will be short, and I'm grateful for the opportunity. In respect of the north Wales office, I have to say that as a local Member in whose constituency that office is based, I've been appalled, frankly, with the lack of engagement with me prior to a decision to close that office being made. I am also very concerned about the decision to co-locate the Senedd offices in a Welsh Government building. That just further conflates and confuses the distinction between this Parliament and the Government, one which is already existent in Wales and we ought to be doing something to address. So, I'm very disappointed that as a local Member, I've had no consultation with me prior to that decision being made.

Ken Skates AC: Well, I must say, the Member wishes us to reduce our budget, and doing what I've proposed will do exactly that. You can't have your cake and eat it.

Darren Millar AC: I've come up with an alternative. I've suggested alternatives.

Ken Skates AC: And in terms of consultation, you do have a member of the Commission in your group who is able to inform you of decisions—

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: On a point of order—

Ken Skates AC: —and it was agreed at the Commission meeting that we would take this cost-saving measure. It was agreed by the Commission.
Look, I must also say that, in terms of the rem board, I think that perhaps the Finance Committee should feel confident in inviting the rem board before it to scrutinise it, and to ask the difficult questions that I think Mike Hedges and others have raised.
In conclusion, this swift exercise in identifying savings is both responsible and pragmatic. I think it gives sight of the storm that awaits us because of the economic turmoil of late, and the fact the economy has now entered into recession.

Janet, did you wish to raise a point of order? I'll check whether it is a point of order, but did you wish to raise anything?

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Yes. It was just on the point that you mentioned. In the Commission meeting, you will remember that we were informed that the north Wales Members had been consulted. When I raised it afterwards with my Members, they had no knowledge of it, and I have taken it up with that particular director.

I'm not sure if it's a point of order, but you've put that on the record, Janet.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you.

Now, the proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes. Therefore we will defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

6. Debate on the Standards of Conduct Committee Report—Sixth Report to the Sixth Senedd under Standing Order 22.9

Item 6 is a debate on the Standards of Conduct Committee report, 'Sixth report to the Sixth Senedd under Standing Order 22.9'. I call on John Griffiths to move the motion on behalf of the committee.

Motion NDM8136 John Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Considers the Report of the Standards of Conduct Committee - Sixth Report to the Sixth Senedd laid before the Senedd on 16 November 2022 in accordance with Standing Order 22.9.
2. Endorses the recommendation in the report.

Motion moved.

John Griffiths AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. As the designated temporary Chair of the Standards of Conduct Committee, I formally move the motion. The committee considered the report from the Commissioner for Standards in relation to a complaint made against Hefin David MS regarding an offensive tweet. The Standards of Conduct Committee gave the commissioner's report careful consideration, and our report sets out the committee's judgment as to the sanction that is appropriate in this case. The facts relating to the complaint, and the committee's reasons for its recommendation, are set out in full in the committee's report. I would like to take this opportunity to highlight to Members the importance of treating interactions on social media in accordance with the same principles that would be applied to face-to-face interaction and remind Members that there is support available to Members in dealing with, and using correctly, social media. The motion tabled invites the Senedd to endorse the committee's recommendation.

There are no other contributors. John, do you wish to add anything?

John Griffiths AC: No.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. Therefore the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

7. Member Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Mental health and community resilience

Item 7 today is a Member debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv) on mental health and community resilience. I call on Jenny Rathbone to move the motion.

Motion NDM8130 Jenny Rathbone
Supported by Huw Irranca-Davies, Mike Hedges, Sam Rowlands, Sioned Williams, Vikki Howells
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes:
a) the publication of MIND Cymru’s 'Together Through Tough Times' report;
b) that community resilience has a positive impact on good mental health.
2. Calls on Welsh Government to:
a) work with the voluntary and community sector to build resilient communities through:
(i) promoting social capital;
(ii) investing in community assets;
(iii) addressing barriers faced by certain groups;
b) include the role played by community assets and networks in any future mental health strategy.

Motion moved.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. We live in very difficult times. We've seen the biggest reduction in public service support for many, many years, and we've got the highest inflation rate for 41 years, with consumer prices jumping over 10 per cent. Food prices have gone up over 16 per cent in the last 12 months, which is the biggest jump since September 1977, when Jim Callaghan was our Prime Minister—a very long time ago. So, it's such an important winter and a challenging winter that we're going to be facing.
Money worries are not the only cause of mental illness, but it certainly doesn't help. I appreciated the comments of Dr Kamila Hawthorne, who's now president of the Royal College of General Practitioners, today, who described the number of her patients in Mountain Ash whose problems are so intractable that she feels powerless to do anything to help them. She feels squeezed like a lemon at the end of the day. The level of distress that her patients' situation is causing her and so many other front-line GPs is a real barometer to the level of pain in our society. So, I thought it was useful that we discussed this report, 'Together Through Tough Times' that was produced last year. But I think it's a really timely reminder of what we must do collectively in our communities to support people in their distress.
The research they commissioned, in collaboration with sister charities in Northern Ireland and Scotland, was carried out in four places across the UK: one in Haverfordwest, another in Portadown in Northern Ireland, in Glasgow, and in a suburb of Wolverhampton. It delivers three key messages for us: talking about mental well-being; supporting community hubs; and a strong, collaborative community and voluntary sector. These are the keys to enable us to get through tough times and to develop resilient communities that can support each other.
Looking at the first point, it is vital that mental well-being has parity with physical health, and we often talk about that. People are never slow to come forward with talking about the time they're going to have to wait for a hip operation or the bad back they experience. We have to redouble our efforts to fight the stigma attached to mental distress.

Jenny Rathbone AC: We've talked a lot about the epidemic of mental distress in our schools and colleges as a result of COVID and, obviously, people living in overcrowded, inadequate housing will have suffered greatly during the lockdown, but it isn't just poor housing that's the problem. Any child living in a dysfunctional home, where domestic violence is lurking under the radar, would have suffered from not being able to escape to the safety of school. There's a really important role for schools to give young people the space to talk about things that are upsetting them, in a safe, non-judgmental way. Rather than wait for the tragedy of a young pupil taking their life, as happened in Haverfordwest, we need to ensure that the new curriculum drives the change needed to focus on the well-being of pupils as well as their academic achievements.
There is a word of warning in the Mind report that communities should not over-rely on schools to provide this support, and that young people need to be able to access support outside of their social circle too. And in the case of bullying, I'm sure that that is an entirely relevant point. Youth services have an extremely important role to play here, and they often pick up on disturbing issues that haven't been addressed in school. But that links into the second key message for community resilience through these tough times, and that is the role of supporting community hubs.
Haverfordwest research focused on young people, and it found children and young people in Haverfordwest felt little ownership of or connection to their communities. Community hubs must cater for people of all ages, not just the very young and the very old. Children and young people don't have cars, and in a place like Haverfordwest, there's probably very little public transport as well, so they are seriously dependent on adults to get them to places where they might be able to find friendship and fun. Local hubs need to be catering for young people, to give them that space outside the home to help them make that difficult transition from childhood to adulthood, not necessarily in the same space or time.
On the other hand, I'm a great fan of inter-generational learning. My good friend Stan Thorne wasn't exactly a party animal, but he got a huge amount of pleasure from the inter-parliamentary chess competitions with young people that took place every year. For those who don't have grandparents living nearby, activities that bring the generations together—whether it's chess, gardening, singing or some other activity—can be a springboard for independent advice and stimulation for both parties. If the only community space in an area is a pub, where can young people under the age of 18 go?
Like young people, the report highlighted that newcomers to an area, ethnic minorities and people living in poverty also find it much more difficult to break into existing community networks. Having said that, there's a great quote from a woman in Portadown in Northern Ireland that illustrates that newcomers can inject new ideas and energy into a community.
'I live on an estate where people are kind and friendly. We're very chatty people'—
says this woman—
'My neighbours either side are Eastern European. It was new for me—I'm used to living with people from my community but during lockdown we've had more time to chat. They have the same family emphasis and they bring my bin in.'
I think it's a really important reminder that Northern Ireland is much more diverse than it used to be—it isn't just two communities who hardly every talk to each other. Newcomers from outside, with different perspectives on the world, might yet play a really important part in how we make the transition towards a permanent peace in Northern Ireland, in whatever guise that takes.
In Wales too, newcomers often bring a new dynamism with them, which was strongly in evidence on Sunday evening when I joined Jane Hutt to share a meal with members of the former Ugandan Asian community who were chucked out of Uganda in 1972, having to leave behind their homes and their businesses, and making their new home in Wales. Not only are many of them playing absolutely crucial roles in our NHS, the purpose of the evening was in aid of an annual dinner for the Vale for Africa charity, to raise money for Tororo district, which is in the poorest part of Uganda. It's a really excellent example of a positive outcome from adverse circumstance. Similarly, the Women Against Pit Closures went on to do lots of absolutely brilliant work in the decade after the defeat of 1984-85.
But to come back to the community hubs, they do play such an important part in keeping communities together, because they belong to us all. They're paid for with our taxes, and so we really do need to make sure that amidst all the difficult decisions that have to be made in the future for local authorities, we continue to keep the hubs going, because they are really such an important part of the fabric of our communities. But we have to also prevent them getting set in aspic and caught up in just one little clique.
The third element of community resilience is a strong, collaborative community and voluntary sector. That is something we have in Cardiff in spades, even in some of our poorest communities. There's Plasnewydd community garden—an award-winning place for people to meet, both to cultivate food and flowers, but also a place to share some of the more sad aspects of their lives. Men's Sheds are also a wonderful space to bring together men, who traditionally have found it more difficult to express their fears and hopes or emotional distress. I know that my colleague Huw Irranca-Davies has played an important part in promoting Men's Sheds—

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Would you take an intervention?

Jenny Rathbone AC: Yes, sure.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: The intervention isn't on Men's Sheds per se. One of the interesting things from your very good contribution here, I have to say, is the need for diversity within this space, that in one community it might be a hub that does multiple things. Would you agree with me that the strength of this is having communities where there are a myriad of options for different parts of the community with diverse needs to come together? It could be Men's Sheds, it could be hen's sheds, it could be choirs, it could be knitters and crafters, or, as I have in my constituency, a group that calls themselves 'Stitch 'n Bitch'.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I absolutely agree. And, you know, people fall out as well, so occasionally people will not want to go back to community hub X, because they need to go somewhere else.
There are wonderful things being done by the voluntary sector, whether it's Rubicon Dance in my community, something called Rhythms Free Dance up in Cardiff North, which caters for people with learning difficulties—all free for those people with learning difficulties—or the Friends and Neighbours meetings that take place across Wales, certainly in my community, which is a place where people can go just to talk in a structured way. They also offer discussions for people who are English language learners, which is wonderful, both for improving their English as well as recounting where they've come from and how they feel about the world. There's a collaboration between Cardiff Pottery Workshops and Platfform, which was formerly Gofal, to enable people to work through their mental distress through their hands, and I think that's absolutely fantastic.
Above all, in the community I represent it is religious groups who have done the heavy lifting on the most important and worrying aspect of the cost-of-living crisis. There are certain religious communities who have just kept going with weekly foodbanks or pantries to serve the hungry and the starving. These cannot survive unless we get the help of better-off people who don't need to think about where the next meal is coming from. They simply will be overrun, because the poor are less able to give to these charities any longer, and therefore the rich and the better-off need to stand in solidarity with the other people who are going though so much difficulty in these tough times. I feel this is something that we all need to think about, in every aspect of the communities that we represent.

Gareth Davies AS: It's a pleasure to take part in this debate this afternoon. I thank Jenny Rathbone for tabling this important debate today, and I fully support the motion and will be voting in favour of the proposal tonight. And it's quite right that we should be doing all we can to support people in our communities who suffer with mental health problems. In my own constituency of the Vale of Clwyd, we have some fantastic facilities to support people, including Denbigh, Rhyl and Prestatyn Men's Sheds and Vale of Clwyd Mind, just to name a couple. But, there is always scope to do more and achieve ambitions that will have a positive impact on people's cognitive well-being.
As my time as a Senedd Member steadily ploughs on, I'd like to take a brief opportunity, if I may, to talk about some of my own mental health struggles. Now, I want to assure people that I don't make these sorts of statements for fun or to get airtime, but I see it as important to share some information to help encourage people to indeed talk about their mental health struggles and some of the issues that we see too often in society. I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder a few years ago and spent a brief time in hospital as I was suicidal and had a plan, which as anyone who knows a thing or two about this, knows that is not a healthy cocktail of events together. But the only reason I got in this mindset was due to my own ignorance in not dealing with what I knew was a problem for a sustained period of time. Like a lot of young men, I thought to myself, 'Just pull yourself together, go for a pint and it will be fine. Man up', and all those things—we know how it goes. I believed that for years and got into an unhealthy routine of trying to deal with problems in those closed ways of thinking that did me no favours. And eventually, it all caught up with me, hence the reason I ended up in the state I was. I had to take three months off work, had professionals visit my home daily and undertook a long programme of medication, talking therapies and treatment to get me back where I am today. And I can't thank the Hafod and north Denbighshire community mental health teams in Rhyl enough for the time that they invested in me to get well again.
Now, I had to build myself back up again from scratch, and I'm a better person for doing so, but I was only able to do this thanks to a team of professionals, together with many protecting factors, including my wife and understanding family and friends. But not everyone has that luxury, which is why it's vital that we get the right infrastructure in place to ensure that nobody slips through the net and that anyone who is experiencing acute problems can feel safe in the knowledge that a system is in place to protect them against the problems that mental health can bring.
I've been fairly brief and broad-brush about some of my personal issues, and I'd be fibbing to say that it's a case of problem solved—yes, I'm a lot better now, but I still have my wobbles from time to time, which set me back slightly. But what I try to do is learn from every bad episode and take lessons from each time I take a dip, and I ask myself, 'What happened there? What contributed to this episode? What can I best do to avoid this happening again?' And this works well, and it's my way of coping with things. And I've learned that being opaque about your problems does you no favours in the long run, and I get so much benefit and positivity out of being more open and hope that, by sharing some of my personal experiences, I can encourage everyone, and especially blokes, who are statistically more likely to hide their problems, into opening up, talking to the right people and getting the help and treatment that they need and deserve. Thank you.

Jane Dodds AS: A heartfelt thanks to you, Gareth, for talking about your situation. It really is important, because talking about mental health is what we should all be doing, so thank you so much for that contribution. And I do thank Jenny as well for bringing this debate here today. It's a really important issue, particularly at this time. You talked about foodbanks and the access people need to have to food, but I want to touch on loneliness, because I feel that there is such an issue here in Wales and in our society around loneliness, which leads to people feeling so isolated in terms of both their mental health difficulties, but it can actually exacerbate it as well.
We know that the statistics in Wales are that 15 per cent of people in Wales say that they are lonely. And that is for different age groups, but actually what surprised me particularly was that the age group that was the highest was young people—16 to 24-year-olds were the group that was more likely to report that they felt lonely.There is also an issue in older age groups as well, particularly when people lose their lifelong partners. And I speak here personally, for when my father died, my mum suffered severely from loneliness, and additionally, the trauma that she had, I'm sure exacerbated her dementia, and we must really think about how, as a society, our communities can help those people who are lonely. We've all talked a little bit about the resources and places that we know in our own areas, and I know that, in my own home town of Hay-on-Wye, we have set up a weekly meal for people to come to, and actually, the biggest issue for them, it's not so much the food, it's about talking, and it's about having that social interaction. People who are particularly on their own are the older age group, who don't feel confident enough to go out, but are finding some solace in being able to talk to people.
So, I do thank you, Jenny, for the debate this afternoon. I think it is so important that we build up community resilience. I like to call it 'community mental health first aid', and I would like to see more accessible training, education, awareness raising for people who want to become mental health first aiders in our communities. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Sioned Williams MS: I'm glad also of the opportunity to speak on this motion today, which I supported and which Plaid Cymru will be supporting, and I would like to thank Jenny Rathbone for bringing this debate to the Senedd. As she said, it's extremely timely.
A person's social networks can have a significant impact on their health, both physical and mental, and studies have shown that a person's social relationships are as important a factor as obesity, smoking or excessive alcohol consumption when it comes to predicting mortality rates. It's a factor in recovery from illness, and where there's a lack of social support, where there is social deprivation and isolation, there is a direct correlation with poor health outcomes, damaging behaviours and mental health problems. Indeed, many studies point to healthy and positive social relationships are actually more important for people's health than factors such as smoking or obesity on mortality. Evidence on quitting smoking, for example, shows that the biggest motivator is a positive life event, and having a positive support network, ensuring a relationally healthy environment, is thus more successful as a public policy tool than using shame or coercion.
Although multifaceted and complex, it is undeniable that our well-being as a society is inextricably linked to social cohesion and interaction, and the 'Together Through Tough Times' report makes clear how the strength of communities, their resources and resilience creates these positive impacts for mental health. And I have seen in my own region how those local community hubs, communal spaces and groups, have helped enrich and empower, fostering empathy and co-operation, forging connections and building confidence, and I'm sure that we can all think of examples in our communities. I'm thinking of the tremendous work of local area co-ordinators, those voluntary organisations—large and small—and community groups who do so much to provide social opportunities of all kinds. And as you mentioned, Huw Irranca-Davies, that variety is key, and the Mind Cymru report points out many different types of people in different types of circumstances need different kinds of access and opportunities and facilities that can help them address mental health problems, and many of the issues that can cause or exacerbate them.
It also crucially underlines the barriers, which we heard about from Jenny, that can prevent different groups from being able to benefit from being part of social networks, and I'm sure we're all also acutely aware that the cost-of-living crisis and the pressures on public finances are bearing down on the structures that help support social capital and safeguard community assets. Just as we would naturally object to hospital closures, any threat to libraries, community halls, art centresand sporting facilities should be similarly resisted. One of my first campaigns that I fought in my community was against cuts that threatened the future of my local community arts centre in Pontardawe, because I knew that the groups that use that space were set to lose a lot more than somewhere to see the pantomime or a concert. Men's Sheds should be seen as crucial a facility as men's health clinics;coffee mornings as important as any formal advice centres.
There can be no doubt that poverty and economic neglect, as well as deliberate ideology, have increased the threats to such beneficial social activity. The importance of co-operation and of our shared humanity is also lost when individualism is politically elevated over shared values, and certain groups are denigrated and scapegoated. Government must thus show that it values people, shares their concerns—

Sioned, will you take an intervention?

Mark Isherwood AC: Sorry, you referred to Men's Sheds. One of the sheds, which was named earlier, I've visited a number of times, and it turns out that a lot of the men there have been through the prison system or in the care system, and they've all been labelled with mental health conditions, but, some years ago, I was invited as a guest to the opening of their autism shed, because it turned out that a significant proportion of these people were neurodiverse. So, do you agree that that emphasises the need for early intervention, assessment and support so that people don't find themselves on that road to hell, where so many of them find themselves because of conditions they were born with?

Sioned Williams MS: Definitely. All these things are preventative, aren't they, and I think that is shown very clearly in the report.
As I was saying, Government must show that it values people and shares their concerns, hears their perspectives and works to create a society where people feel like they belong to foster a healthy social environment so as to avoid deepening the causes of poor mental health, which, of course, in turn, puts pressure, even more pressure, on public services. So, Government can directly foster the cohesion that creates resilience by supporting volunteering, which is proven to be beneficial for health and well-being and can reduce social isolation and exclusion. Formal and informal community groups can be supported to provide spaces for interaction and form a large part of the holistic and preventative approach to mental health and well-being that is needed now in this time of acute economic pressure more than ever.
The link between viable communities and mental health has been comprehensively foregrounded by the mental health charity Platfform Cymru, who emphasise the importance of working with communities who want to create a greater sense of connection, ownership and well-being in the places they live. That's why, as the motion calls for, Welsh Government should protect, invest in and recognise the role that community assets and networks play in creating the co-operative, inclusive and caring communities that could help underpin a successful mental health strategy. I urge you all to support the motion.

I call on the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being. Lynne Neagle.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and can I thank Jenny Rathbone for tabling this debate today? We know that our health and well-being are not determined by access to healthcare services alone, but by a whole host of social, economic and environmental considerations. The COVID-19 pandemic has had a profound impact. The direct health impacts of COVID and long COVID, the changes to the way that we work and the disruption to education have all contributed to increasing levels of anxiety for both ourselves and for our families.
In particular, the pandemic shone a light on the public health impact of loneliness and social isolation. Tackling this is a national priority through our connected communities strategy, and one I feel very strongly about. And now, just as people are starting to pick themselves up after the pandemic, we are hit with an unprecedented cost-of-living crisis. This will undoubtedly impact on the mental health of so many people.One of the lessons from the pandemic is the vital role of our relationships and connections with others, whether they be our loved ones, friends or our community, they are more important than ever. This is why I'm such a passionate advocate for the power of community connection to support our well-being. The role of positive relationships and connections, be that the community we live in or a community based around shared interests and values are crucial in supporting our well-being. A strong community can be a powerful, protective factor in people's lives, especially when times are tough.
I am proud that the Welsh Government recognises this and has put in place a number of commitments to build stronger, more resilient communities in Wales. Our programme for government commitment to develop a national framework for social prescribing is progressing, and I recently consulted on a suitable model for social prescribing across Wales. Our social prescribing framework underlines the importance of community assets and the vital role they play in supporting well-being.
The Welsh Government has also developed a wide array of policies to support communities. In July, we set out our commitment to a communities policy to be developed in Wales that will promote better working between Welsh Government, external partners, including the voluntary and community sector, and the communities they serve. We are committed to working co-productively with all partners at a local level to enable local communities to become more empowered, connected and thriving, and ultimately more resilient.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you for taking an intervention. The motion talks about community assets and the importance of community assets, and you've mentioned it yourself and the importance to the Government. We know that a lot of community assets are being lost, like chapels and cinemas and pubs, and we know that the best way for communities is to take control of those assets and to empower communities properly by giving them the opportunity to control them. But the Welsh Government and the Labour Government have promised this since 2007, saying that he would legislate to empower communities and allow communities to take control of community assets, but still that legislation isn't there. Do you not agree that one of the best things that you could do is to introduce legislation to empower communities and allow communities to take control of those assets?

Lynne Neagle AC: Well, it's funny you should say that, because I was just coming on to community assets. I also recognise the importance of community assets. Our long-running communities facilities programme and our new and innovative community assets loan fund are just some of the ways we recognise and support ongoing development of infrastructure for community hubs, working with community partners to strengthen resilience in communities. We also aim to improve co-location of public services, including the commitment to develop 50 local community hubs to co-locate front-line health services as well as investing in integrated health and social care centres.
'Together Through Tough Times' highlights the importance of an open-door culture for mental health. Well, here in Wales, the creation of a 'no wrong door' approach to mental health is already a key programme for government commitment. We have significantly increased investment in our tiers 0 and 1 support to provide easy access to mental health support without the need for a referral, and we are making good progress with our roll-out of the 24/7 111 'press 2 for mental health' in Wales, with Hywel Dda University Health Board our first health board to go live with the service.
We’ve also strengthened our approach to suicide prevention and recently established a cross-Government suicide strategic prevention group. 'Talk to me 2', our suicide prevention strategy, recognises that community connection helps strengthen protection against suicide. Earlier this year, we also launched the real-time suicide surveillance system—[Interruption.] I’m assuming my time will be added to.

I will give you extra time to cover these interventions.

Mark Isherwood AC: I'll be as brief as I can, because there's a lot of interest in this. You referred to assets and then community connections. Do you recognise and support the concept and delivery of asset-based community development, which is about unlocking the strengths of individuals within their communities to empower them, remove the barriers they encounter and enable them to contribute to building community resilience in their own area?

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you, Mark. Clearly, empowering communities is a key part of what we're doing and I very much support us taking a strength-basedapproach to that work.
As I said, we also launched the real-time suicide surveillance system, which will provide earlier access to information to help inform future prevention work, but, vitally, ensure appropriate support for those bereaved by suicide who we know are at increased risk of dying by suicide.
And I was particularly pleased that the 'Together Through Tough Times' research in Wales focused on young people and highlighted the key role of schools and colleges. We in Welsh Government wholeheartedly agree. That's why we're taking forward our whole-school approach to mental health in Wales. In March 2021, we published statutory guidance on the whole-school approach. The guidance is aimed at ensuring consistency in schools' approaches to the emotional and mental health of their learners to enable schools to put in place strategies to build on their strengths and address any weaknesses. The guidance is rooted in the value of strong relationships and connectedness that comes through very clearly in the report we're discussing today and is underpinned by over £43 million from Welsh Government budgets over the three years. And this is in addition to our groundbreaking new Curriculum for Wales, which has the health and well-being area of learning and experience at its very centre.
Our community-focused schools programme and capital investment aims to make the school site more accessible and open to the local community, respond to the needs of that community, build strong partnerships with families and collaborate effectively with other services. And we are very proud of our NEST framework, which aims to ensure a whole-system approach for developing mental health, well-being and support services for babies, children, young people, parents, carers and their families. The framework recognises the importance of safe and supportive communities for families to live, play and socialise in.
Finally, our mental health strategy, 'Together for Mental Health', takes a cross-Government and multi-agency approach to improve mental health. A key driver of our strategy is to work to improve and protect it. The role of the community and wider determinants of good mental health are already embedded as part of this approach. We are reaching the end of our 10-year strategy, and an independent evaluation of our progress will be published in due course. The work to develop our new strategy has already begun, and I intend to consult on it next year. My officials are developing an engagement plan to inform the new strategy, but we know that the role of communities in supporting well-being, social connections and increasing resilience will be a key focus. The recommendations and content of the 'Together Through Tough Times' report, I'm pleased to say, will help us in informing our thinking around the development of the future strategy.
And can I just conclude, Deputy Presiding Officer, by thanking Gareth Davies for speaking out about his own mental health today? I recognise how difficult it is to talk about that in this Chamber, but it is vital in tackling stigma, and your contribution today will help and inspire many others. Diolch.

I call on Jenny Rathbone to reply to the debate.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I thank all Members for their contributions and particularly Gareth Davies for having the courage to speak out, because it is your bravery and your preparedness to share your story that gives other people who are going through similar experiences the hope that they too can recover and then resume normal life. The way the way you described how you learn from every episode and setback in order to strengthen your emotional resilience is really outstanding, so thank you very much indeed for that.
Jane Dodds spoke about loneliness, and I absolutely agree that that is a potential killer. It is one of the groups that I didn't talk about in my opening remarks: those who are living in poverty. That is one of the isolators, as well as people who are newcomers, or people from ethnic minorities. If you live in poverty, you are constantly thinking, 'Do I dare take my children to this or that activity? Will I be embarrassed because I'm asked to contribute in some way or another financially?' So, we really have to think so hard about this in the current situation. But I absolutely agree with you that loneliness is one of the biggest factors that undermine people's health and well-being, and Sioned equally spoke about that as well.
Jane, you also spoke about community mental health first aid—. Sorry, did you say something? No. I beg your pardon. And the importance of bonding social capital of saving important community assets, like the Pontardawe community arts centre, which I'm sure is a much-loved place. Because, once they're gone, it's really, really difficult to get them back again. That's why, if we haven't got the resources to run something in the short term, we need to mothball and make sure that we've still got them there for the future. But, hopefully, we don't have to do that. We may have to call on volunteers to run them for us, but we really do need to keep our community centres going, because that is where people combat loneliness. Because just meeting somebody once, in one context, enables you, then, to say 'hello' to them when you meet them in the shop or on the bus, and that, then, can lead to a deepening of relationships and a, 'Oh, I haven't so-and-so recently; I'll just pop around and see whether they're okay.' Those are really the most important things about combating loneliness.
Mark Isherwood, in your intervention, you very importantly spoke about autism as a way—. Autistic people can become so lonely and isolated, particularly if, as adults, their parents move on and are no longer available to support them. I saw a wonderful programme—I think it was on S4C—about a woman in Gloucestershire who had converted the farm that she had inherited from her parents into a social enterprise farm to enable young people to go to work, despite their autism, supported by other people. That is such a good example of how everybody can work, so long as we give them the right context. It’s down to the community at large to reach out to people who have particular disabilities, and ensure that we are not discriminating against them because we simply haven’t thought about it.
So, Lynne Neagle, you're such a good ambassador for mental health; I feel confident that we're in good hands in terms of keeping this flag flying. I think that the important work that the Government is doing around a whole-school approach to mental health is absolutely crucial. Mabon, you reminded us in a timely fashion about the importance of community asset transfers, which exist in other parts of the UK. At the moment, the Welsh Government has got a different approach, but we need to keep hold of that one.
Distressed people don’t learn well, and, unfortunately, they often end up with enduring mental health issues, or in the criminal justice system. So, there’s a real bonus in addressing these problems at an early time. Lastly, I just want to end by saying that Christmas is the worst time for poor people. It’s supposed to be a happy time. Actually, it’s a terrible time if you're poor. I just wanted to end by reading out something that a man from Glasgow said:
'At the moment…I can’t go to my friend’s house like I would do every Christmas. My neighbour knows that and has invited me to spend Christmas with her and her family. During tough times, the people around you can be there for you if you need.'
So, we all need to think about who in our community is going to have a rubbish Christmas, and how we can help them to have a better Christmas as a result.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection. Therefore, I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

8. Debate on the Local Government and Housing Committee Report: The provision of sites for Gypsy, Roma and Travellers

Item 8 this afternoon is a debate on the Local Government and Housing Committee report, 'Provision of sites for Gypsy, Roma and Travellers'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—John Griffiths.

Motion NDM8139 John Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd:
Notes the report of the Local Government and Housing Committee, ‘Provision of sites for Gypsy, Roma and Travellers’, which was laid in the Table Office on 11 August 2022.

Motion moved.

John Griffiths AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm pleased to open today's debate on the Local Government and Housing Committee's report on the provision of sites for Gypsy, Roma and Travellers. I'd like to start by thanking all those who contributed to our inquiry, in particular to the individuals and families from the Gypsy, Roma and Traveller community who opened their homes to members of the committee and spoke so candidly about their experiences.
The Gypsy, Roma and Traveller community is part of the fabric of Welsh culture, history and traditions. Too often, however, it is a community marginalised, pushed to the edges of society, and often the subject of prejudice and discrimination. In 2014, this Senedd passed legislation that would require local authorities to both assess the accommodation needs of the Gypsy, Roma and Traveller community and to meet that identified need. The Housing (Wales) Act 2014 sets out clear duties and expectations on local authorities to ensure sufficient culturally appropriate site provision for the Gypsy, Roma and Traveller community. Yet, eight years after those provisions came into force, we continue to hear of severe overcrowding at local authority sites, families waiting years for a pitch, and a backlog of maintenance and repair issues. We saw first-hand, on our visits to various locations in Wales, the issues that the Gypsy, Roma and Traveller community face day to day. On-site facilities, particularly for the young, are in very poor condition, or simply do not exist.

Paul Davies took the Chair.

John Griffiths AC: Too often, sites are located far from local services and amenities, including schools, and are usually situated near busy A-roads and industrial infrastructure. We heard from Professor Jo Richardson of De Montfort University, who noted that sites are often located in unsuitable areas,
'because it's the patch of land that had the least hostility, that could be developed'.
This deprives the Gypsy, Roma and Traveller community of any connection to the natural environment, and the opportunity to make a decent home. This, in our view, is totally unacceptable.
We were encouraged, Llywydd dros dro, to hear the Minister for Social Justice agree that locating sites next to busy roads and far from local services is unacceptable, and Welsh Government with partner organisations are seeking to improve outcomes through its 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'. The committee welcomes the publication of this plan; however, we do have reservations about its potential effectiveness in its ability to deliver more sites. Whether such emphasis should be placed on the plan is a matter of debate, since legislation already exists that requires local authorities to meet the need of Gypsy, Roma and Traveller communities. The evidence suggests that there is little accountability for failure to meet those statutory duties at present. The Minister told the committee that the legislative framework is 'robust' and that since 2014, 63 new pitches have been built, with funding to refurbish many more. We call on the Welsh Government to ensure that the framework is effective in practice, and to set out how it will tighten its monitoring of implementation of the Act, given the problems that we know exist in terms of availability of sites, quality of sites, suitable location of sites, and the general cultural unsuitability of provision within Wales.
Within the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' there is a commitment to create a national network of transit provision to facilitate travelling life by 2025. We heard that the lack of transitory provision and stopping places in Wales is of real concern to the Gypsy, Roma and Traveller community. Data currently shows that there are as few as two transit pitches across the whole of Wales. This lack of provision only adds to the challenges faced by the Gypsy, Roma and Traveller community.
The passing of the UK Government’s Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022 has heightened anxiety among many within that community. The Act makes trespassing a criminal offence and gives police the powers to tackle unauthorised encampments, and may include seizing vehicles from those who live this nomadic lifestyle. The committee was reassured to hear from the Welsh police forces that the use of such powers would be a last resort, and that a multi-agency response will continue to be adopted here in Wales. Nevertheless, mitigating the impact of the Act on these communities is imperative, and that can only be done by providing sufficient and appropriate sites and pitches across our country.
While the focus of the inquiry was on the provision of local authority sites, many families are seeking to establish a home of their own on their own parcel of land. We heard of a myriad of barriers and legal obstacles to the granting of planning permission. Many families, in fact, go to great expense to hire legal representation and planning specialists to help them navigate a complicated system, too often without success. We were pleased to hear, then, that Welsh Government has committed to commission a three-year pilot programme to provide trusted, independent advice to people seeking to develop private sites. We look forward to seeing this programme progress with speed, and we will be looking closely at the impact it will have on outcomes.
Throughout the evidence gathering process, the committee heard that prejudice and discrimination is prevalent in the decisions and actions taken by institutions and elected representatives. The Children’s Commissioner for Wales called for more to be done to tackle the prejudice that exists within local authorities, and at a community level, to prevent discrimination in decision-making processes. To this end, we are pleased to see that the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' commits to commission a provider to deliver members' training on Gypsy and Traveller communities’ culture, needs and strengths. However, we are concerned that the training will not be provided to all local authorities in Wales, and we do have reservations about the extent to which the training will have lasting impact. We recommended that the training should be expanded to the community council sector in Wales.
There is a need, we believe, to improve knowledge and understanding of the culture, needs and strengths of Gypsy, Roma and Traveller communities among the wider community, and we were pleased to hear that our recommendations have been accepted in full. We look forward to monitoring the development and impact of this work over the next few years, and that includes funding. Funding to support the development of measures in the action plan, as well as continued funding support for local authorities, will be critical to improving the availability of appropriate sites and pitches in the future. The Welsh Government has committed to review the current funding policy, with a view to pilot additional or new ways of funding site provision, including support for private sites, by 2024. We would encourage Welsh Government to explore all possible avenues for funding the development of sites in Wales.
Our 21 recommendations, which, as I said earlier, we're very pleased to see have been accepted in full by the Welsh Government, we believe set out some very important ways forward. We know that the Minister for Social Justice and the Welsh Government as a whole are committed to improving not only the provision of sites for Gypsy, Roma and Travellers, but also to improving the lives of this diverse community.
This is a very important issue to us, and I believe our report has set out in quite stark terms the reality of the situation here in Wales at the moment, and the need for much more to be done and action to be taken that is practically effective on the ground, where it really counts. Gypsy, Roma and Traveller communities simply want a place to call home for however long they are there. We as a committee will be monitoring this important issue throughout the term of this sixth Senedd to see how interventions and, in particular, the goals within the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' have positively impacted on the lives of those it seeks to help. We all know actions speak louder than words, and in these instances, action is greatly needed. Diolch.

Joel James MS: As I'm sure everyone here will agree, it was very pleasing to see that the Minister has accepted all the recommendations made in the committee report, but, to be honest, with such slow progress of this Government in meeting its duty to provide appropriate sites in the last eight years, there is little to be reassured about in terms of what will be different this time. Reading the report, I have no doubt that this Government views Gypsy, Roma and Traveller communities as second-class citizens. It is an appalling state of affairs that this community find themselves in and, frankly, I'm genuinely surprised that the Minister has allowed this situation to deteriorate to where it is.
I and colleagues here—and I'm sure many Gypsy, Roma and Traveller communities around the country as well—are deeply concerned that these recommendations have been accepted by the Government with a typical view of having little to no intention of actually implementing them, and I'd like to use this time to urge the Minister in every possible way to please take these recommendations seriously, because there's been an immeasurable impact on the communities who are waiting for implementation of policy.
I would like to make the Minister aware that the extremely slow progress on the implementation of the Housing (Wales) Act 2014 is not providing sufficient sites for GRT communities, and this means that there are families under legal enforcement to leave their own land, with no alternative options provided; that there are families encamped on pieces of land for more than 10 years, with very basic or no facilities; and there are families who, despite their registered need, have seen no progress on additional pitches for members of their growing families, and who have now become technically homeless and living on roadsides. This is an appalling situation for them to be in, and it is of this Government's making.
I would therefore like to urge the Minister to take responsibility and show some leadership here and ensure that outstanding reviews are implemented, because it is having some serious consequences for communities. For instance, the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan', created to deliver the recommendations and the programme of work that has been produced, has not produced an update on any progress since its publication in July, and this means that people are left in a state of limbo because there are no timelines for when work will begin. Similarly, the Gypsy and Traveller accommodation assessments—GTAAs—for all 22 local authorities, which were submitted to the Welsh Government in February of this year for review, have yet to be completed, and the failure to complete the review means that Gypsies and Travellers do not know that their needs have been included for future site provision, and plans to address acknowledged accommodation needs for families cannot progress until replacement GTAAs are adopted.
As we are aware, the committee report found that there is a significant lack of transitory provision in Wales. In fact, there are no available transit sites or designated stopping places in Wales, and this does indeed fall far short of meeting the needs of Gypsy, Roma and Travellers, because it limits their ability to lead a nomadic lifestyle. Since the Minister has accepted a recommendation that cites the anti-racist action plan as the driver to deliver transit provision in Wales, I am interested to know what action the Government is taking to achieve the stated goal of at least five pitches in both north and south Wales, bearing in mind that a significant number of the draft local authority GTAAs have assessed that they have no requirement for transit provision in their areas.
I also want to bring to your attention the views of Gypsy, Roma and Traveller communities who have expressed their concerns that they're just not being listened to and are kept out of the decision-making processes that concern them. We've heard from communities in Denbighshire and Conwy, who have said that councillors are disrespectful to them and ignorant of their needs, and that they are not taken seriously by Welsh Government officials or advocacy services, who believe that they know what is best for them without actually including them in any decision-making processes, and in particular, they believe that officials are encouraging the erroneous view that transit sites are not needed.
Moreover, because these communities have been moved off land and, in some cases, off land that they own, without appropriate sites to go to and having to resort to camping on road verges or wherever they can, they feel that they're being viewed unjustly as criminals by the outside world, and the longer this process takes of actually building both transit and permanent sites, the more entrenched the view of them being criminals is becoming. This unjust negative view is the result of the inaction of this Welsh Government in implementing its own policies. In this regard, given the lack of progress to date on how the Welsh Government will ensure that transit provision is progressed, the Welsh Government needs, in my view, to provide an explanation of what nomadic communities should do in the meantime, now that trespassing has become a criminal rather than civil offence and that there are no available legal places for vehicles to stay whilst travelling.
And finally, I believe that this Government needs to state its plan on how to ensure that the urgency to deal with the issues that the GRT community face are acted upon and properly monitored. And I think that the GRT communities who have been affected by all this deserve an apology from this Government for the situation it has placed them in. Thank you.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: I want to echo the thanks that the Chair John Griffiths expressed earlier. Certainly, everyone contributed and enriched the discussion that we had while undertaking this inquiry, but thanks in the main to those witnesses and those who welcomed us into their homes to discuss these issues, and who opened their hearts to us in the process. But the research undertaken as part of preparing this report was an eye-opener, I have to confess.
Of course, one is painfully aware of the prejudices and racism that exist against our nomadic communities here in Wales, but I have to confess that I hadn't fully realised what became clear, and what appeared to me, at least, to be systemic racism in some of our local authorities, which flowed from the political body. I accept that that is serious statement, but the evidence that we heard demonstrates clearly that not only is there a lack of understanding of the needs of our nomadic communities, but that there is a deliberate lack of action and prejudice against them. It's clear that there is prejudice against ethnic groups on a large scale, and let's call it what it is, namely racism.
The good news is that it is perfectly clear to me that the Minister is personally committed to tackling this, and I'm sure that she is wholly sincere in her desire to see this issue being solved. But, the question remains: why, eight years since the legislation was passed, has this issue not already been solved? There are statutory expectations already in place that are meant to ensure that there are purpose-built residential and transit sites available to Gypsy, Roma and Traveller communities in Wales. But, despite this, it is concerning to hear the Minister say that the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' would tackle this issue. Is this not recognition of the Government's total failure to enforce its own legislation? We don't need to wait for new action plans—we must enforce legislation that already exists.
So, while I welcome the fact that the Government accepts every one of the recommendations that the committee has made, the truth is that, as things stand, I and people from Wales's nomadic communities have very little faith that the recommendations will be implemented. I'd like to hear from the Minister what the timetable is for delivering these improvements and recommendations and to ensure that legislation is implemented. What indicators will be used to measure delivery, and how will these indicators be monitored? How will progress be monitored?
What became clear was that our Gypsy, Roma and Traveller communities are having decisions made for them and made to them more often than not. They themselves are not an active part of any decisions made, and they're not considered as key stakeholders, even in decisions on the future of their own lives. Therefore, I'd like the Minister to set out how the Government will ensure that these communities have a central role in decision making and a lead in drawing up plans for permanent and transit sites, so that their cultural and social needs are considered in full.
I remember the Minister giving the following answer in response to one of my questions in the scrutiny process:

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: 'So, we need to take into account what the issues are, what the barriers are to providing the appropriate accommodation. Clearly, that power of direction is there, and you may find that we will have to use this. We're just about to, as I said, timewise, look at the latest assessment, and that assessment will show us whether there is a will and, clearly, a commitment to deliver on statutory duties in terms of the Gypsy, Roma and Traveller sites—residential and transit as well. So, I have no hesitation in saying that we will use those powers of direction if that is deemed to be appropriate.'

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Those were the Minister's words in giving evidence to us, that she was not afraid to use the powers she had. But, after years of failed delivery, it's hard to understand why these powers haven't already been used to date. So, to conclude, I'd like the Minister to explain under what circumstances she would be willing to use these powers. Thank you.

Carolyn Thomas AS: I'd like to thank the Local Government and Housing Committee staff and the Senedd's community liaison team for their work producing the report, organising evidence sessions and visits to engage directly with the community—that was really valuable—and also Travelling Ahead, who came with us as well.
We discovered there aren't enough sites and there are long waiting lists for local authority ones of up to 20 years. Sites are often on the outskirts of areas, away from amenities, with no pavements to safely link them. There was a lot of concrete and metal barrier fencing and they were poorly maintained, with a lack of green spaces and provision for children. Their location next to busy roads and industrial sites means noise and air pollution is a real issue. One place we visited had one electricity meter at the entrance to the site and extension cables linking caravans to the electricity provision at various points, and broadband was also poor in the areas. Representatives of the community should be consulted when planning where sites should be as part of the LDP process. It should be done right at the beginning, and also when any additional funding for site provision is made available, which wasn't happening.
The Welsh Government's capital funding for site provision improvements is really welcome, but at one site the funding had been used by the local authority to improve the access road. The community said it wasn't the one that they actually wanted repairing, and they would have actually liked to have used the funding for other purposes, such as play provision on the site, and improving the green area that was to the side and they didn't have access to. Layout of sites is also important for well-being, and not always properly considered. One site said they were asked for their views but they were not reflected in what was delivered by the council-owned site.
One home had a broken window, which had been waiting for a repair for a long time. Another had ineffective gutters for surface water. I was thinking that perhaps Gypsy, Roma and Traveller sites should move into the housing revenue account to sit along other social housing, so that rent is ring-fenced, reinvested, and they could be brought up to standard, such as social housing is. As residents pay rent for the sites just like any other tenant, they are subject to council tax, rent, gas, electricity and other associated charges, in the same way as other tenants are.
It was so informative listening and talking to the members of the community. As a councillor I had diversity training, but never had the opportunity to directly engage with the GRT community; I sat in a room with other councillors, having a slide presentation delivered by a council officer. So, it would be good if there was more cultural awareness with the extended community where there are sites, to help knock down barriers and to build community cohesiveness.
One site we visited, owned by a family, wanted permission for their immediate family to have temporary homes on the site so they could be nearby. One daughter had a disabled son with complex needs and needed the family support. They were struggling with the planning system, bureaucracy and discrimination, and really needed help.
There is the concern that the UK Government Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022, which makes unauthorised encampments a criminal offence, could impact, as there is a lack of authorised sites. And with there also being a lack of transition sites, it was considered that corporate joint committees, under their role of strategic planning, could enable local authorities to work in collaboration to provide suitable sites. Having someone independent who could be a trusted liaison officer for planning or other help to represent their views is essential, and there needs to be measured goals and timelines in place for all the recommendations to help strengthen the legislation.
Once again, my thanks go to everyone who took part. It's certainly opened my eyes, and I found it really useful. Now the stakeholders need to know it was all worthwhile, worth their time, and that their voices will be heard. Thank you.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I'd like to pay tribute to Travelling Ahead, first of all, which is a really excellent organisation, financially aided by the Welsh Government. It's really good at helping the Gypsy, Roma and Traveller community assert their rights, but they really can't do it on their own, and that is why I'm really pleased that the Local Government and Housing Committee has looked at this, because we are going to have to keep coming back to this one, if we're not going to have what Joel James said, which is that there's not sufficient progress in the last eight years. The Minister is, I know, a serious champion of this issue, but frankly the Minister cannot authorise sites in any particular local authority—it's local authorities who need to do that—and all public bodies need to have a bit more equity in their approach to delivering public services. The situation we face at the moment simply is unacceptable.
The Gypsy, Roma and Traveller community is one of the oldest communities in Europe, and yet they are the most discriminated against ethnic group, throughout Wales as well as throughout Europe. The level of prejudice they suffer is worse than anything that any other ethnic minority group suffers. Year after year, local authorities have failed to act on the requirement under the Housing (Wales) Act 2014 to analyse the sufficiency or insufficiency of housing provision for the Gypsy and Traveller community. Quite frankly, they've been allowed to get away with it, because year after year, capital sums have been set aside in the Welsh Government's budget to enable the cost of providing sites to be accounted for, and local authorities simply have ignored the problem, in the main. Obviously, there are no votes in this, and that is why people don't do it. And that is why people end up next to busy roads with polluted air, where nobody else would ever dream of living.
They're also the lowest performing ethnic group for educational attainment by a racing mile. The curriculum needs to be flexible enough to meet every pupil's needs, and that includes the Gypsy, Traveller and Roma community. There are many careers that are actually quite suitable for people who have a travelling lifestyle. For people who work in the construction industry, when one project ends, another one has to start somewhere else. So, there are lots of bonuses and positives about the Gypsy and Traveller way of life, but respect is simply not possible without participation and consultation in shaping a better life for them.
It is tragic that one of the worst decisions of the UK Tory Government, amongst a long list of poor decision making, is the criminalisation of the Gypsy, Traveller and Roma community, who have to stop anywhere if there is not a registered site. It's simply unacceptable. I'm glad to hear that the police say that it's only as a last resort will they criminalise people and take away their caravans, but we really can't go on like this, and local authorities are going to have to have their feet held to the fire.
There is some good practice. As I recall, Monmouthshire and Pembrokeshire have provided some good sites, and other local authorities have simply ignored their responsibilities. I suggest that we need to keep bringing this matter back to the Senedd, because we all have a duty to see some progress on this. I know that the Minister for Social Justice is very keen to see progress, but she needs to liaise with the Minister for Finance and Local Government and ensure that we actually get action on this now. I'm very glad that the Minister has accepted all the recommendations of what sounds like a really interesting inquiry, but we can't just go on noting these things, we've got to see some change.

Paul Davies AC: I call on the Minister for Social Justice, Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, acting Llywydd. I want to take the opportunity, first of all, to thank the Local Government and Housing Committee for their important inquiry into the provision of sites for Gypsy, Roma and Traveller communities. The committee and the Chair, John Griffiths, today asked the very pertinent question of whether our legislative and policy framework is robust and sufficient to support the development and provision of culturally appropriate sites for our Gypsy, Roma and Traveller communities. I said, when I came before the committee, that we do have a very strong and comprehensive framework of duties and powers, yet there is clearly so much more to do to ensure that the impact of those powers and that framework is actually making a clear and urgent difference to Gypsy, Roma and Traveller communities. Your inquiry has been so important to bring that focus out: is it robust and what more can we do?
I do think it is helpful to look back to what has happened as a result of the 2014 legislation. Between 2015 and 2021, we funded local authorities to build 63 new pitches and refurbish many more, and last financial year we had a budget of £3.5 million for refurbishing existing accommodation, constructing new pitches and improving the sustainability of sites. This year, the budget is £3.69 million, and 93 pitches now have improved access to utilities, five new pitches are being constructed and 88 pitches improved or refurbished. You will have seen some of those examples during your inquiry. And of course, this also enables site safety as well as the provision that our Gypsy, Roma and Traveller communities want and have planned for. So, in answering that question—that key question—we must recognise that the steps that have been taken are steps that are delivering progress, but make no mistake, we must do more.

Jane Hutt AC: Those local authorities that have taken the lead are the exemplar authorities, but all authorities should be exemplar. There is more to do to bring others up to the level of those who have made that positive progress, and I do think that's why our 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' has added new impetus to address this challenge. As well as embedding a general anti-racist culture within public administration in Wales, we've committed to several actions specific to these communities, including guidance for schools, creating a national network of transit provision—and I accepted the recommendation on transit provision; that came through so strongly in your inquiry, and as you know, in my response, I said,
'The certification of a national network of transit provision to facilitate travelling life, with consideration for negotiated stopping, as appropriate, is one of the specific actions now being taken forward under the Anti-Racist Wales Action Plan.'
Also, piloting new mechanisms for permanent provision, providing learning and development support to local authority elected members on Gypsy and Traveller communities' culture, needs and strengths. And, Carolyn Thomas, you drew this out, having been a councillor—many former councillors here in this Chamber—you remember that this has got to be a different way of doing training, hasn't it, so that we actually learn from the Gypsy, Traveller and Roma communities and people themselves.
Also, a pilot programme to provide independent advice to those seeking to develop private sites. There was a lot of discussion about that, and it is important that that is independent, so that those private sites could be developed. Yes, and indeed, as you called for, a review of current funding policy. If it's not, why isn't it achieving the outcomes that we want? A revision of our sites guidance and a national training programme for the housing options team and the appointment of leads in each authority: when there are leads in authorities, we know that it makes a huge difference, and I'll just comment on one example in a moment.
So, we do have the legislation; we have the guidance, the powers of direction, and we now have this strengthened policy route to take forward with the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'. And it's very clear that we have a renewed focus that now must be on how local authorities deliver, and they've got to be the ones who deliver with our backing and our challenge. And I will be meeting with lead local authority members, cabinet members, to discuss this report with them. This is not just a report for us, is it? It's a report particularly for our partners in local government. Local authorities have come under the spotlight, and that's been reflected here today by Members' contributions. Much of the evidence heard by the committee was a lack of action, and amongst some, it was also attributed to a lack of political will; that resistance, as Jenny Rathbone has said. And I think the actions set out in our 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' acknowledge and address this, but we do want to publicly recognise examples of what is possible.
So, when I went to visit a site recently in Merthyr, there was a community hall beside the site, and in that community hall, they had a number of services, including boxing sessions for the young people, Citizens Advice, Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin working on site with children, and also the site was being redeveloped in partnership with all the community having a say in design, in terms of future prospects—very much a place that felt like a community in itself.And this is what we want to see, and I do commend the Merthyr authority for working to achieve that. Real commitment was shown. Again, lead officers have such a key role, and councillors should be at the forefront. That dedicated lead officer was also very keen to work with other authorities, to work on a regional basis, which very much picks up recommendation 2 on the transitory provision.
So, through our 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan', we do seek to encourage, challenge, and support authorities to change the narrative around this community and deliver better outcomes. We do have the powers to direct, but I still think that we can achieve a lot through support and guidance, but I will be clear—Mabon challenged me again today, and I remember, I made that commitment that, where our partnership with local government does not succeed, we will intervene directly as necessary.
But, finally, I want to say that running through the core of our approach is engagement with the voice of the community itself, and this is particularly true and reflected in the committee's recommendations 9, 16 and 21 regarding site guidance, accommodation assessments and enforcement of the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022. All of this can only be progressed by not only listening to, but involving those with lived experience. Can I thank the Local Government and Housing Committee for the way that you carried out this inquiry, the way that you went out and met with Gypsy, Roma and Traveller people and communities? So, yes, we accept all the recommendations without reservation. We're grateful for the Local Government and Housing Committee's commitment to support in improving the needs and lives of our Gypsy, Roma and Traveller people and communities in Wales. This is about, actually, how we engage with our Gypsy, Roma and Traveller communities.
We have committed dedicated funding for over a decade to support improved outcomes for Gypsy, Roma and Traveller learners. And I think it's very important that Tom Hendry, who represented the Welsh Romani Gypsy community on Holocaust Memorial Day 2021—and many of you will remember that—is one of the community mentors who actually helped us to deliver the anti-racist Wales equality action plan. Diolch yn fawr. Thank you for your inquiry.

Paul Davies AC: I call on John Griffiths to reply to the debate.

John Griffiths AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd dros dro. May I thank everybody who contributed to what I think is a very important debate today? I think there seems to be a common acceptance that Wales is not in the position that it should be in with regard to the Gypsy, Roma, Traveller community. We like to think of ourselves as a country that is very strong on human rights, and that's reflected in a lot of things that, first of all the Assembly and now the Senedd has done over the course of devolution. We've worked very closely with our ethnic minority communities in Wales on very many issues.
But, as many contributors to this debate have said, and as our report makes clear, there seems to be a real gap when it comes to the Gypsy, Roma, Traveller community. They face discrimination, a lack of understanding, prejudice on a level and with a history that marks them out, I think, as being treated differently to others in Wales. We know, don't we, that it's the mark of a civilised society to understand difference, to accommodate difference, to support difference, so that those with an alternative lifestyle are able to lead that alternative lifestyle. For this community, over an awful long time, we've seen that ability to lead the lifestyle they wish to lead in accordance with their history and their culture eroded, undermined and not supported. We've seen their traditional stopping places disappear with creeping urbanisation, industrialisation, commercial development, and they haven't been replaced with adequate, culturally appropriate sites—permanent site or transit sites, or indeed, more informal stopping places. So, it really is, as we've heard, as our report demonstrates and as the debate today has reflected, a real gap in policy and practice in Wales. It is a stain, I think, on our country.
So, we really do need to take action, I think, along the lines in our report and, as the Minister has stated, we need that political will at a Welsh Government level, at a local authority level, and in service providers, as Jenny Rathbone mentioned. And I'd like to thank Jenny, because I know that she's long championed these communities in her work and in her previous chairing of an all-party group. So, thank you very much for your work on this, Jenny, and thanks very much to the committee members and their contributions today.
I think, given the background that I've outlined and what I think we all accept exists, that gap between the framework that exists—the legislative, regulatory and guidance framework—and what actually happens on the ground, we, obviously, very obviously, need to see action. We know that there's a great deal of cynicism, I think, borne of bitter experience in our communities here in Wales. They'll look at this report, they'll listen to this debate, they'll hear the commitment of Welsh Government and they'll say, 'What's going to count is delivery and implementation'—what actually happens on the ground in Wales, through our local authorities, through other service providers, through that leadership and political will of Welsh Government. That will be the acid test. Can we finally deliver for these communities? Will there finally be proper engagement and co-production right across Wales in terms of site provision, transit, pitches, refurbishment and repair of existing sites? All of that is not seeing adequate engagement, consultation and co-production at the moment. There is some good practice, as the Minister stated, but it's not consistent; it's not right across Wales. There is so much that needs to be done on this, and we rely now, I think, on Welsh Government to show a clear lead, to make sure that acceptance of the recommendations is followed up with effective leadership and delivery on the ground. Jenny said that this matter should come back to Plenary, and I'm sure it will, and also, of course, it will come back to our committee, and we will keep a very strong watching brief on whether we do see that necessary action on the ground.

Paul Davies AC: The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

9. Plaid Cymru Debate: Nurses' pay

The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Lesley Griffiths and amendment 2 in the name of Darren Millar.

Paul Davies AC: The next item is item 9, and it's the Plaid Cymru debate on nurses' pay, and I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to move the motion.

Motion NDM8140 Siân Gwenllian
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Believes that Welsh nurses deserve fair remuneration for their essential work in keeping our communities safe and healthy.
2. Calls on the Welsh Government to utilise every devolved lever at its disposal to make an improved pay offer for NHS nurses in Wales.

Motion moved.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you, Chair. We're today asking the Welsh Government to support Welsh nurses. We're asking the Senedd to support our statement that nurses deserve fair pay for their work, and we ask Ministers to use all levers possible in order to make an improved pay offer to nurses.
We are facing a nurses' strike for the very first time. Nurses, who are carers by nature as well as by profession, have made the most difficult decision possible to take industrial action because they feel that they have no other option. We are asking the whole Senedd to support the motion. We will support the second amendment, calling on the Government to come back to the table for discussion. The First Minister said last week:

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 'All strike action ends in the end in negotiation',
but how about trying to end the strike action through negotiation? Even UK Government has negotiated, to no avail, but why on earth will the Labour Welsh health Minister not bring everyone back around the table through the Welsh partnership forum that's there for this exact purpose? I pointed out last week that Welsh Government hadn't even responded to the correspondence sent by the Royal College of Nursing on 25 October, asking for those negotiations to take place. As if by magic, the Minister has responded in the last few minutes, I understand—the first correspondence since that strike ballot result. But yet, there is no commitment to meet for new pay negotiations. What I'm seeing is a Government preparing for the nurses' strike action, when we should have a Government trying to avert that strike action in the first place.
It's not all about pay—it's important to remember that. Nurses also want to know that they're being supported, given time for professional development and training, that staffing levels aren't putting them or their patients in danger, that there's a workforce plan aimed at bringing down the 3,000 or so nursing vacancies in Wales. But pay is a key part of being able to show nurses that they are valued. For too long, pay has been squeezed. For too long, the UK Tory Government has given us cuts, cuts and cuts; their economic incompetence compounding what was already a public spending crisis. But for too long, Welsh Government has used that as a reason to shy away from its responsibilities. Whatever the context, governing is always about prioritising.I’ll be told again today, as will my colleagues, ‘Where would you find the money?’ And I and colleagues have been open. We've urged you to look at how you can use all the levers at your disposal—taxation, reserves, reallocation. But I’m not in Government. Governing is a privilege. It’s a huge responsibility. And in this case, it’s the responsibility to avert an even deeper crisis in the NHS than the one that we already face.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: There are 3,000 vacant nursing posts in the NHS in Wales. Nurses are leaving the profession. The failure to retain staff is a crisis. And unless these questions around salary are addressed, we will lose more—the crisis will deepen. More and more have been turning to agency work, contributing to the huge agency bill of some £130 million per annum now—a bill that we simply cannot afford, and a bill that would pay for the salaries of almost 5,000 new nurses.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank goodness we haven't faced a shortage of people wanting to become nurses, to come into the profession. We've actually seen an increase, a positive increase, in nursing student places in Wales in every year bar one, I think, of the past decade. On its own, that is great news, but it's a leaking dam. Yes, we've more coming into nursing, but numbers leaving are undoing that, and the exodus shows no sign of slowing down.
With an underpaid workforce that's also overworked, it's a recipe for even more attrition. Every week, nurses give the NHS in Wales an additional 67,000 hours of work. That's equivalent to 1,800 nurses. This isn't sustainable. So, yes, retention is perhaps a greater challenge than recruitment, but, of course, bringing in new nurses remains crucial. Let me ask the Minister one specific question around that. A few years ago, Welsh Government did consider removing the bursary, which is such an important element of being able to attract people into nursing. We, in opposition, and the RCN, and all those who saw the value of the bursary, succeeded in persuading the Minister at the time not to scrap it, and that was to be welcomed. Can this current Minister confirm unequivocally now that there is no plan to remove or undermine that bursary, that this payment will continue to play an important part in attracting and supporting nurses through their training? Without it, the crisis deepens even further.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I hope that I have painted a clear picture for you this afternoon as to why we must reach a settlement on the question of wages and support for nurses. But let me make it even more clear through the words and experiences of nurses and their families, speaking directly. A mother from Anglesey who has two nurses as daughters, one in Wales, and the other in Australia, unfortunately. The one in Australia is paid twice as much as the daughter working here in Wales. She would like to return to nurse here, but how can she as things stand? A third of a nurse's salary here can be spent on childcare for just one child, the mother says. She asks the Government to pay them a fair wage.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Tony, a retired child and adolescent mental health nurse, came out of retirement to help during the pandemic, and thank goodness he did. Now on a nurse bank, he says,'The situation was bad before I retired, but, on returning to work, I was met with excellent nurses describing feeling sick with anxiety before going to work in the morning, and crying when they finished work because they felt that they had failed to give patients the standard of care that they wanted to.'
Sarah says that she voted to strike because, after nearly 40 years of nursing, she's fed up of being taken for granted when it comes to pay: 'We've repeatedly been neglected and have not fought back', she says. 'But this time we've had enough.' This neglect has contributed to a reduced number of student nurses, and the early retirement of thousands, causing a severe staffing shortage.
Tom, a community nurse, says that the cost-of-living crisis is crippling him and other nurses. He said, 'I didn't come into the NHS to be rich'—none of them did; it comes from the heart—but he adds, 'We're hitting a crisis. We're looking after really vulnerable people, and no matter how hard we work, there's so much pressure and the resources aren't there.'
And Katherine, finally, an RCN member, says,'Professionally employed people should not be forced to use foodbanks or sleep in their cars between shifts because they can't afford petrol.'
There are so many more nurses' stories I could share with you.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Llywydd, it's a word I've used a number of times today: crisis. The NHS is already in crisis. It was pre COVID; it's always important to bear that in mind. But, of course, the pandemic has exacerbated the situation. But the situation could get even more critical. We now have nurses preparing to leave wards in a dispute over wages, while simultaneously more and more are preparing to leave the profession entirely, and wage levels play an important part in that. We must stop this, and, although it's not the only solution, securing a deserved pay settlement must be a major part of the solution. The Government cannot delay any longer.

I have selected the two amendments to the motion, and I call on the Minister for health first of all to move formally amendment 1.

Amendment 1—Lesley Griffiths
Delete point 2.

Amendment 1 moved.

Eluned Morgan AC: Formally.

Amendment 1 has been moved. Now amendment 2 to be moved, in the name of Darren Millar, by Russell George.

Amendment 2—Darren Millar
Add new point at end of motion
Calls on the Welsh Government to meet with the Royal College of Nursing Wales to discussits campaign for fair pay and safe staffing to avoid strike action this winter.

Amendment 2 moved.

Russell George AC: Diolch, Presiding Officer. Can I thank Plaid Cymru for bringing forward this debate today? A quite proper use of debating time in the Chamber this afternoon.
A strike will have devastating consequences for patients, and we know six of the seven health boards have voted in favour of strike action. I think that just shows how desperate nurses are for the Welsh Government to listen to them. I'll say to the Minister: Minister, you must do everything in your power to avert a nursing strike as well as stemming the workforce pressures.
To speak to the amendments today, we'll be supporting Plaid's motion fully today. I'm very disappointed at the Government's deleting point 2 of the Plaid motion. We've added an amendment of our own, which calls on the Welsh Government to meet with the Royal College of Nursing Wales to discuss its campaign for fair pay and safe staffing to avoid strike action this winter. To be really clear on this, the Minister has not met with the RCN to discuss their campaign for fair pay, and has only just responded to the request that they made last month. As Rhun ap Iorwerth has pointed out, the Minister still has no plans to meet with the RCN, and what frustrates me is that the Minister seeks to deflect, when this question is put to her, and then responds to a different point. Yes, you may be meeting the RCN to discuss other matters, and you may be meeting with unions, but you have not met with the RCN to discuss their fair pay campaign. And that is our amendment to the motion this afternoon, Minister. I hope you will confirm that you will be meeting with the RCN and supporting our amendment today.
Now, as Rhun ap Iorwerth has pointed out, it's not just about pay, of course, as well. Other areas need to be examined—key conditions, such as mental health support, retention, upskilling and tackling the mammoth staffing gaps in the NHS. They've got to be tackled urgently as well, so that the NHS workforce is fully supported. And whilst I'm on that point, I note Rhun did ask you to guarantee, in his opening comments, but I would reiterate that myself, Minister: can you give that guarantee that the nurses' tuition fee bursary will be safeguarded into the future in your remarks this afternoon?
Minister, you responded to one of my colleagues last week in the Chamber that you were fed up; you were fed up of some of the questions being put to you. [Interruption.] You did say that, Minister; you did say you were fed up of some of the questions being put to you. Well, can I say that I'm fed up, I'm frustrated, when Ministers don't take responsibility for what is in their power here? So, the Welsh Government has been responsible for the Welsh NHS for 20 years, and you, Minister—[Interruption.] I'll come on to that now, don't worry, Deputy Minister. But the Welsh Government is also responsible for nurses' pay and conditions as well. So, I'm fed up when you point your finger—it's health boards' responsibility, it's Westminster's responsibility, you want more money—all the time deflecting away from the responsibility here.
The autumn statement has just been announced. The Welsh Government will receive an additional £1.2 billion in consequentials. You, Minister, can cut your cloth as you choose to do here. I could name a whole raft of areas where I believe the Welsh Government has spent money inappropriately, or wasted money.So, you have the responsibility here to cut your own cloth. I could talk about the different views in this Chamber about the £100 million that's about to be spent on 30 new Senedd Members. That's a debate for another day, but that's equivalent to 4,000 newly-qualified nurses. That debate will happen again, I'm sure. But the point is that these are decisions made here by you, Minister. I and my colleagues are wholeheartedly supporting our NHS nurses, and we think that they should be supported in the profession that they love. And it is disappointing that the Welsh Government has still failed to produce a retention plan for nursing over two years on from the NHS workforce plan in 2022.
We face another winter of severe pressures on the NHS, and the Welsh Government should be doing everything in its hands and in its toolbox to avert strike action and avert pressure being put on the NHS across Wales. Minister, I would call on you this afternoon and call on the Welsh Government to meet with the Royal College of Nursing to discuss its campaign for fair pay and safe staffing to avoid a winter of industrial action in the coming months ahead. Diolch yn fawr.

Heledd Fychan AS: As was referenced by Rhun ap Iorwerth, we do welcome the fact that the Welsh Government has increased the number of nursing student places in Wales, with the exception of 2019-20, where the number remained static. It is very much welcome. But, unfortunately, the exodus of nurses leaving the NHS shows no sign of slowing down, and clearly seems to be increasing, as many nurses are leaving the profession earlier in their careers. In fact, when I recently met with the RCN, I heard directly from staff that students are even taking the decision not to seek work with the NHS because of what they've witnessed and experienced during placements, and the stress they have been under because of what they consider to be unsafe staffing levels.
Experiences of the pandemic only reinforced what was already known about the NHS and the nursing workforce here in Wales. It is a workforce suffering from staff shortages, low pay and low morale, and yet it is incredibly needed and valued. But the reality is that nurses are operating in an environment deprived of investment and resources, which is why it should be of no surprise that the biggest threat to the workforce is its sustainability, with far more nurses leaving the NHS than can be matched by newly-qualified nurses or internationally-recruited nurses.
Research has shown that, where there are fewer nurses, patients are 26 per cent more likely to die, and this rises to 29 per cent following complicated hospital stays. Health boards acknowledge that nursing retention is an issue, and in many reports, discussed at countless meetings, they frequently highlight the absence of a national strategy in terms of retention. We need a national solution to a national problem, yet it appears that there is no incentive or performance management scrutiny from the Welsh Government in terms of the issue of staff retention. There is clearly a staffing crisis, and the Welsh Government must take action to tackle the issue of retention if we are to see improvements.
As has already been referenced, there are various strategies to address the high vacancy rates, such as the all-Wales national approach, and there are effective procurement initiatives and support for international nurses in place. However, in terms of both retention and recruitment, we already know what would make a difference to nurses, because they have told us, and that is uplifting nurses' pay and making sure staffing levels are safe. We know that, with the coming winter pressures as well as the cost-of-living crisis, the deeply concerning situation within NHS Wales will only worsen. And the current risk posed to patients because of a shortage in nursing staff and a struggling, exhausted workforce will increase.
We believe that our nurses and the public deserve appropriate and sufficient care. The only way to attract and retain nursing staff is to reward them, and to reward them well for their skills and commitment, and this must start with an above-inflation pay rise. This isn't my solution nor Plaid Cymru's—it's what nurses have told us needs to happen. This is something I have been told when I've met with them in hospitals, and heard directly from them about the very real challenges they are facing, and why some people feel they have no option but to leave a profession that they really, truly care about.
During the pandemic, we showed our appreciation for the NHS by standing on our doorsteps and clapping, but saying 'diolch' is no longer enough, and actions do speak louder than words, and I would ask all Members of the Senedd to support our motion and support our nurses today.

Carolyn Thomas AS: I recently visited Glyndŵr University in Wrexham, which has expanded to now offer nursing and a variety of allied health degrees, plus retraining, in fantastic new spaces with the latest technology. The bursary in Wales for training also makes a huge difference. Nursing and other staff get such a hard time and morale is low, so we need to promote nursing and health as a career, and we need to ensure that both Governments invest in people when looking at rebuilding the economy, not just construction and the private sector. We also need to create career pathways for specialist services, such as mental health nurses. We need to build back our public services and ensure there is adequate funding from the UK Treasury to give decent wages and employ more front-line staff, so that we can retain those we have on decent hours without pushing them to exhaustion. Not only nurses, but also care workers, allied health professionals, porters, administrators, advisory services, housing officers, teachers—all these impact on health and desperately need funding. And the pot is being cut, eaten up by inflationary pressures, not just caused by the war, but also Brexit, 12 years of austerity and terrible decisions made by the recent Conservative Prime Minister, creating a £30 billion pressure and rising inflation. I understand that the NHS energy bill black hole this financial year is £100 million. Councils are still facing an £802 million budget black hole, and the delayed transition to care is a huge issue, and it's a delicate funding balance. One cannot be addressed without impacting on the other. We simply need more funding from the UK Government for public services to cover all the inflationary rises.
But in terms of what the Welsh Government can do, I'd also like to know what consideration has been given to reducing NHS reliance on agency staff, in turn allowing them to improve pay for NHS workers and address the recruitment crisis, so we have more directly employed nurses. I believe the total spend on agency nursing for 2021-22 was £133.4 million, which has increased by 41 per cent from the previous financial year. At present, agencies are offering substantial hourly rates. For example, adverts are currently live for an agency nurse in Wrexham Maelor Hospital offering between £23 and £48 per hour, so even at the lower end of this offer, the pay is considerably higher than what an NHS nurse would receive; I think it's about £16 an hour. Earlier this year, I met with the Royal College of Nursing regarding NHS nurses' pay and conditions, and it was raised with me that, if health boards stopped paying to bring in agency staff to fill the gaps and instead directly employed nurses on improved pay and working patterns, there would be no need to pay the high cost to agencies in the first place. Because I was wondering how this cycle could be broken, and if it's not quite so clear, maybe we could just pass that information on to nurses as well, so they understand.
So, Minister, in your response, I'd like to know what the Welsh Government is doing to break the cycle of reliance on agency nurses, to ensure money goes directly into employing NHS nurses rather than relying on the expensive agency route. And if it's not that simple, please can you let me know why it's happening? Thank you.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: For my contribution this afternoon, I'd like to focus on the impact that the crisis in nursing in Wales is having on hospices, and in particular on the two children's hospices in Wales—Tŷ Hafan and Tŷ Gobaith. Both hospices are sanctuaries to some of the most vulnerable children in Wales and their families. Neither hospice can work to full capacity, however, due to growing staffing costs and financial limitations to maintain a competitive employment choice for nurses. This means that the hospices are unable to provide all the support they can to the people who need it the most.
Having campaigned hard with the hospices to improve the funding settlement provided by the state to hospices, it is incredibly disappointing that hospices cannot currently work at full capacity. It seems that the recent uplift provided by the Welsh Government, which was the first in over a decade and still lags way behind the support provided by the SNP Government to children’s hospices in Scotland, has not kept pace with the rapidly changing circumstances. Not only are prevailing conditions and the economic outlook affecting the charities' ability to raise funds, but there has also been little recognition of how rising costs and inflation have essentially engulfed the bulk of the funding made available. Also, with nursing resource costs set to increase further, the gap between funding received and the effect on services delivered become larger.
Research shows that the need for hospice-based services, end-of-life care, symptom management and crisis-driven respite care is only going to increase. Yet, shockingly, these needs are increasingly not being met. Having visited Tŷ Hafan and seen first-hand the difference they make to children facing the bleakest of futures, this is truly heartbreaking. The outlook is that things will only get worse. An upcoming prevalence study, sponsored by Welsh Government, will show that a vast number of families with life-limited children, who are amongst the most vulnerable in our society, are not presently in receipt of hospice support.
Resourcing beds has not always been straightforward, specifically for Tŷ Hafan, where the exhausted pipeline for qualified children's nurses has led to recruitment challenges. This recruitment challenge reflects the current nursing shortage, and sustainable funding is vital to secure the provision of these essential services in line with current need. The connection between great care and experienced nurses is well known, and yet the current shortage of nursing staff in Wales is severely affecting a hospice's ability to deliver the level of care and support they would like to as many families as possible. If the current rate of attrition continues, it is conceivable that the hospices will not be able to operate. In line with their stated aim to be a compassionate country, the Welsh Government should support the hospice sector, specifically those nurses who are its building blocks, and this support must begin with an above-inflation pay rise. Diolch yn fawr.

Samuel Kurtz MS: I'm grateful for the opportunity to contribute to today's debate, and I thank Plaid Cymru for tabling it. Like other speakers, I wish to start my contribution by paying tribute to all those front-line workers within our NHS. They have led us in the fight against coronavirus, from treating people in hospitals to administering vaccines as part of the UK's world-leading vaccination effort.
I want to take the opportunity to specifically look at nursing conditions in my local health board, Hywel Dda. Figures from the Royal College of Nursing showed that the number of nursing vacancies in my health board—in our health board, Minister—increased from 408 full-time-equivalent positions in May 2021 to 539.2 full-time-equivalent positions in July of this year. This is leading to a much heavier reliance on agency staff, which is reflected in staggering spending, highlighted by further figures obtained by the RCN. Over the course of the 2021-22 financial year, spend on agency nurses for the health board was between £28.9 million and £34.3 million. Why can't I give an accurate spend? Because the figures provided by the health board, via a freedom of information request, were £5.4 million lower than the figures obtained by another absolutely identical FOI request sent to the Welsh Government. How on earth can such a vast discrepancy in accounting exists between Welsh Government and health board figures? And while this discrepancy is deeply troubling, we should not let it deflect away from the sheer amount of money that this health board is spending over the course of a year on agency nursing—money that, with better management and, most importantly, better guidance from the top, could be spent on retaining nurses and paying them a higher salary.
But this debate today is not just about the remuneration that nurses receive, but also about the respect that the Welsh Government shows to them. You've not met with the RCN to discuss the pay dispute. Both the Westminster and Scottish health Ministers have. And having listened to the Minister's response to the Petition's Committee report on safe staffing levels on 28 September, I know she will stand in response to this debate and point the finger at the Westminster Government. But can I ask the Minister, with genuine seriousness, to pause and reflect on her current strategy of deflection? Is it really the best course of action to treat our nursing workforce, a workforce of intelligent, articulate and determined people, with a lack of respect by trying to pull the wool over their eyes? It is the Welsh Government that has been in charge of the NHS in Wales for over 23 years now—a period of time where the Welsh Labour Party have always had their hands on the levers of power. I know this, the Minister knows this and, most importantly, the nurses know this.
Minister, none of us want to see our nurses strike. As a Welsh Conservative, industrial action is something that does not sit comfortably with me. In recent months, I have visited Glangwili General Hospital and had frank conversations with nurses. From these conversations and following discussions with the RCN, I can see why they are so frustrated. So, I beg you, Minister, I plead with you, to sit down around the table with the RCN to specifically talk about pay and the strike action. Deflecting your responsibility as health Minister, when after the pandemic the understanding of where health decisions are made in Wales is at an all-time high, does a disservice to the workforce who so valiantly serve us. My constituents deserve better. Our nurses in Wales deserve better. Please, Minister, take responsibility for your Government's actions. Establish a constructive way forward to avert industrial action, and recognise the contribution that our nurses make in Wales. Diolch.

Luke Fletcher AS: How many of us have been grateful for the care that a relative has received when they are ill? I'm certainly grateful for the care that two of my grandparents received during COVID. That care that we rely on wouldn't be possible, and the quality of the care wouldn't be as good, without nurses—nurses who are asked every shift to go the extra mile, who were asked to take an extra shift during the pandemic. The reality is that more than half of Wales's nurses are demoralised.
Leanne Lewis, a nurse in my region, a fellow Pencoed resident, has said publicly and to me how there is a genuine staffing crisis. She said staff are leaving in their droves. Leanne tells us that there is lots of staff sickness through burnout and post-COVID complications, and there is not the right skills mix on the wards. Like the majority of nurses—and that's 78 per cent of them, by the way—Leanne felt that patient care was being compromised.
It's one of the reasons why we've called for an extension to section 25B of the Nurse Staffing Levels (Wales) Act 2016. Previously, the Minister has said that section 25B is based on evidence, and that being grounded in evidence is what gives the Act its credibility, and that any call to extend section 25B neglects the foundation of the Act. Well, I would say that the evidence is there. It's overwhelming. It's there today in what nurses across the Welsh NHS are telling us. Hell, it was in the Tawel Fan report, back in September 2014. All of this has highlighted the seriousness of the situation. Our nurses are doing everything they can to mitigate the issues, but, like everyone, they can't be everywhere at once, no matter how much they want to be.
What it comes down to is the need for better recruitment and retention. I come back to Leanne. She tells us that nurses are absolutely traumatised and fed up of not being able to give their patients the care they want to give, and the care that they deserve. 'It's heart-breaking', she tells us,
'to have colleagues phoning me after a shift in tears because they feel they haven't been able to provide the care they wish they could have due to not having the staff.'
Tawel Fan should have been a wake-up call for the Government, but the problems have persisted and worsened, and, as a result of the Government's inaction, the people who pay the price are staff and their patients. I would welcome in your response, Minister, if the Government is ready to extend section 25B.
Now, there have been repetitive calls on the Welsh Government to commit to valuing our nursing workforce. In June 2021, 16 organisations wrote to the First Minister to urge the Government to ensure safe nurse staffing and expand section 25B to mental health in-patient wards and community settings. In October 2021, health boards asked for more funding, resources and nurses in preparation for the extension to paediatric wards. And there were also fewer patient incidents in 2021, where nursing has been considered a factor on wards covered by section 25B, compared to 2019.
Strike action has come as a last resort, as it always does. No matter what industry you're in, nobody wants to strike. But Government inaction to address the situation has left RCN members feeling like they have no other option, for the first time in their over 100-year history. A recent YouGov poll in Wales showed that 85 per cent of the public support a pay rise for nurses. All of those people are potentially NHS Wales patients. Without a nursing workforce, the NHS cannot function. Without an above-inflation pay rise, improvements in service for patients will not be possible. So, I urge the Welsh Government to have open discussions with the RCN and to commit genuinely to raising nurses' pay.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you to Plaid Cymru for this debate today.

Jane Dodds AS: It is a really serious situation that we face, and it's good that we're able to really debate this here in the Senedd. I do want to say that I know the Minister has had many, many things on her plate and it has been a very pressurised time, but, right now, to think that we might face a nurses' strike is really very challenging for us as a society here in Wales. To think that many of the lowest paid who care most directly and work so hard for the patients in their care might be considering going on strike—. Now, put yourself in the head of somebody who has devoted themselves to caring for vulnerable people in need, and think, 'The only way I can get better conditions, better pay, is actually to strike.' They have not made that decision lightly.
I want to just focus on two areas, briefly. One of those has been covered to Luke Fletcher, in relation to section 25B. I would seek confirmation that there is no commitment at all to row back on this, because I am concerned, actually, that that might be happening. The RCN actually cite very clearly that section 25B retains nurses—that nurses working in wards where that is the case actually want to stay. So, it's imperative that we retain it and extend it. I'm bound to say, of course, that this Bill was brought in by Kirsty Williams and the Welsh Liberal Democrats. In fact, it's the only private Member's Bill in 23 years to actually go through the Senedd, showing, I think, the degree of support and commitment that there was across parties to making sure that we had those safe nurse staffing levels. I would welcome as well an update from you, Minister, on whether you plan to extend the Act, as you've heard from Luke Fletcher, in order to address the staffing retention crisis in many other areas of our NHS.
The final issue I just wanted to touch on is, it seems, the Welsh Government's refusal to use the levers at its disposal to actually award better pay for nurses. Before I go on to that, I think it's important that we don't get lost in the language of 'pay rise', because in the dire economic circumstances we find ourselves in, not least that the retail price index measure of inflation is running at 11 per cent, any pay award that the Welsh Government offer nurses below that level is actually a real-terms pay cut, and that's why I implore you to do everything in your power to deliver on a real pay rise for our nurses, to address the recruitment and retention crisis in the Welsh NHS. That's why I'll be supporting the motion today. Because I do know that the Welsh Government has in its power the ability to pay our nurses, and that is that we can look at how we use the powers here to raise taxes. I've said this time and time again: we have the ability here in Wales now—we have the ability to put on a penny in the pound. Now, I'm sure that many people around Wales wouldn't begrudge that; in fact, I think they'd commit to that, for our valued NHS workers and our valued social care workers. Let's be bold, let's be brave, let's see a commitment to that part of our society that cares for our most vulnerable. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Gareth Davies AS: It's a pleasure to take part in this debate this afternoon on a subject I'm fairly passionate about, with my experience in the NHS. As mentioned earlier in the debate, the UK Conservative Government has provided Wales with £1.2 billion in Barnett consequentials after announcements made in last week's autumn statement, and that's in direct contradiction to the health Minister's claims that her funding would be cut. The Labour Government only has to look at themselves for the blame, and the health Minister should be putting that case to her Cabinet. I'll give you a few examples of some of the money that's been wasted by the Welsh Government that could be, arguably, ploughed into nurses and front-line NHS workers. So, £66.2 million on loans to prop up Cardiff Airport; £110 million on overspends and delays to the A465 Heads of the Valleys road; £157 million on the M4 relief road, which never got built; £14 million on the Llanbedr bypass in Gwynedd, which was halted when Lee Waters decided to halt road building; £4.25 million on Gilestone Farm in Powys; and £20 million on the universal basic income pilot. Let's not forget, as Russell George mentioned as well, that the Labour Party are very happy to spend £100 million on potentially 36 new Members of the Senedd, which would equate to around 4,000 newly qualified nurses, as Russell George also mentioned. The Royal College of Nursing Cymru has estimated that vacancy rates have almost doubled in the last year, with 2,900 vacancies in the nursing workforce compared with 1,719 in 2021. Wales is indeed the only country in the UK not to fully publish its vacancy data.
Just to briefly outline why I'm passionate about nursing staff levels and nurses getting a fair pay deal, obviously, it's because I worked for Betsi Cadwaladr and the NHS for 11 years, and I worked very closely with nurses across a very broad range of disciplines. It's really non-exhaustive what nurses do. They cover so many different areas—general health, mental health, the prison service. The list is endless. They specialise in other areas, so the skill set of nurses is very wide. Let's not forget as well that they have to indeed make a lot of sacrifices in order to qualify as nurses. Let's not forget that it's three years of education in university, £9,000 a year tuition fees, so you're looking at about £27,000-worth of debt before they've even started their careers. And their list of duties is non-exhaustive. They work 12-hour shifts, they work nights, they work weekends, they work all the unsociable hours—Christmas Day, you name it. So, they certainly put a shift in, to coin a phrase, and they're very hard-working and have a lot of responsibility for the public's health, and I think that should be fairly rewarded within the NHS service.
So, I'll just conclude by urging the Minister to get around the table with the RCN to thrash a deal out and prevent nurses' strike action, particularly as well as we're heading into winter—well, we are in winter; we're not heading into winter, we are here. We obviously know the consequential pressures of the winter, so, timing-wise, it's not the best time of year if strikes were to happen. So, please, Minister, please take some responsibility, get around the table with the RCN and let's do a deal. Thank you.

The Minister for health now to contribute to the debate—Eluned Morgan.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I want to say at the start that we absolutely recognise why so many nurses have voted for industrial action for the first time in the RCN's history. We believe that nurses, together with other hard-working NHS and public sector workers, should be fairly awarded for their work. Nurses, healthcare professionals, cleaners, porters, paramedics and many other professions that make up the NHS staff are on the same NHS terms and conditions as their colleagues across the UK—the 'Agenda for Change' contracts. So, Members should be aware that singling out one group of staff or prioritising one group over another when it comes to pay has significant consequences. All of our NHS staff are vitally important, and without them—all of them—we couldn't provide NHS services.
Now, we understand the concerns and anger of our workforce about how their standards of living are being eroded, but, before I turn to finances and financing, I want to cover the process that I followed this year in making the pay award. Now, as in previous years, we asked the independent pay review bodies to provide their independent advice, and when we asked for that advice, we specifically asked them to consider the cost-of-living crisis. The pay review body reviews evidence from all parties, including Government, trade unions and employers, prior to making independent recommendations. It's a mechanism that we and trade unions have agreed to follow when it comes to pay negotiations for NHS workers on 'Agenda for Change' contracts. So, RCN are part of the 'Agenda for Change' contractual negotiations. So, after careful consideration, I accepted their recommendations, and I also agreed to pay the £1,400 uplift on top of the temporary real living wage uplift, which I announced in March 2022, which means that the lowest paid NHS staff will see that substantive salary increase by 10.8 per cent.
Before announcing the pay award, I met with trade union colleagues to discuss the current financial pressures and explained that we could not increase the pay award without making extremely difficult decisions about cuts to other areas of the health budget, which would, inevitably, cut the services available to the public and make it even harder to clear the waiting lists. Now, I greatly value the regular contact that I have trade unions, and whilst these are not pay negotiations—I've just explained the process that we use for that—they are about issues that greatly impact on the NHS workforce, such as staff welfare and well-being, and I look forward to my next meeting with the NHS Wales business committee trade unions, which includes the RCN, on Monday.
Llywydd, I am saddened that, in the midst of a cost-of-living crisis, we are unable to give nurses, our NHS staff and our wider public sector staff an inflation-matching pay award, because our funding settlement falls far short of what is needed to meet these significant pressures that they and we face. Last week, the Chancellor presented his autumn statement, and we believe this was a missed opportunity to provide nurses, NHS staff and public sector workers with a pay rise. Now, there was some additional funding for Wales—£1.2 billion over the next two years. That's for the whole of everything we do in Government—two years—but this falls far short of what's needed to fill the holes in our budget, let alone meet the pay calls being made by staff and unions in all parts of the public sector. And there was worse news for this year. There is no extra funding for this year, despite the huge inflationary pressures, and this Plaid Cymru motion calls for us to use every lever possible to give nurses a pay rise. We've heard suggestions that we should use reserves or unallocated funds. Well, I'm afraid the figures we've heard quoted this week, in terms of unallocated funds, are very out of date. You're using June figures. That was before we knew about the £207 million extra bill for energy just for the NHS. So, every penny of our budget is needed to meet the inflationary pressures on public services.

Adam Price AC: Will the Minister give way?

Eluned Morgan AC: Yes, I'm happy to give way.

Adam Price AC: Thank you for giving way. I specifically asked if you could update us on the current figure. So, can you tell us what is the current figure for unallocated spending and what is the current figure for the Welsh reserve?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, just to be absolutely clear, the pressures are way above that. This is no underspend this year. Wake up and smell the roses. I'll tell you how much extra I've had to find in terms of cuts this year in the NHS budget. It's cuts. We're way overspent.

Adam Price AC: Yes, well, will you tell us what—? Do you have the figures for unallocated spending currently and for the reserve? And can you share them with us?

Eluned Morgan AC: No, I can tell you there is no unallocated funding. I can't go further than that. I can tell you how much over—. I think we can get that information to you.

Adam Price AC: Just to be clear, you're saying—

Eluned Morgan AC: No, I'm not going to give way again.

The Minister isn't giving way. The Minister can continue.

Eluned Morgan AC: The supplementary budget is going to be coming out very shortly, and you'll get all the detail in there. You will see the impact of the inflationary pressures, and they are way over anything that was in unallocated funding that you looked at in June. Every penny of our budget is needed. But even if we did have underspends, let's be clear that this could not be used to fund pay awards. This is time-limited and non-recurring funding. Reserves can't be used for everyday spending. They can only be used once, and they're held for emergencies. Responsible government also means preparing for the unexpected—for floods, for new COVID strains, for the cost-of-living crisis.
We've heard suggestions that we should cut back also on agency spend. I know there's a lot more we can do, and we must do, to drive down costs in this area, and we are working on it. But switching off the use of agency staff would have serious consequences if we did it very quickly in the Welsh NHS. We—

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Will the Minister give way?

Eluned Morgan AC: Sure.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I do hear what you're saying, and I think there's a valid point on this going too rapidly on agency staff. But I think there is an issue here on the reliance on agency. You often speak to front-line NHS workers who will say, 'If some of that proportion of what's been spent in additional agency was actually spent on mild enhancements to encourage us to come back in or stay after shift'. Can we do that over time?

Eluned Morgan AC: I can assure you that my officials are working on this as we speak. There's a lot of work being done. I do think people need to understand that we do have a legal requirement in terms of safe staffing levels. If you're saying, 'Don't use agency staff', what that will mean is that we'll have to close wards. There will be accident and emergency services that will have to stop. That's the consequence of doing it too quickly. We know we have to do more, but we can't do it overnight.
It's true that we do have choices. We've heard calls today to increase Welsh rates of income taxto pay nurses. I explained earlier that prioritising one group of public sector staff over another has significant consequences. We would want to consider giving all public sector workers an inflation-matching pay rise, but that is going to be extremely difficult. We'd need to raise at least an extra £900 million. To raise that through the Welsh rates of income tax, we'd need to raise the basic rate not by a penny, but by 4.5p. Such a rise could generate about £900 million. So, we could cover it, but imagine what that would mean. It would mean that, in Wales, one of the poorest parts of the UK, we would have some of the highest tax rates. It would have to become permanent, and let me just give you an example of what that means in practice. Somebody earning £20,000 in Wales would be paying an extra £424 a year in tax, and someone earning £30,000 in Wales would be paying £784 more in tax. And don't forget that nurses would be covered by that. So, if they're earning £35,000, even nurses would have to pay an extra £1,009 in tax.
Another lever available to us would be to make deep cuts into existing and future health and social care budgets. That would mean job cuts and cuts to services. It would mean longer waiting times and fewer new medicines. Of course, that is possible. The Scottish Government have decided to do that, and what they've done is massive cuts to budgets to front-line services. That's the reality of what you need to do. If we were to do the same, it would—

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Would you take a short intervention?

Eluned Morgan AC: No, I'm not doing any more interventions, if you don't mind, because I know the Llywydd is going to call me to order very soon.

You're perfectly within your rights to decide on interventions.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you. I want to give you an assurance that the nurse bursary will remain. I'd like to emphasise that what we need is a fair funding settlement from the UK Government, which recognises the hard work of all of our NHS staff and other public sector workers and provides them with a fair reward for the jobs that they do.
I take this opportunity again to implore the UK Government to consider the significant impact industrial action will have on the delivery of services, and to provide additional funding for a fair pay award for staff to avoid industrial action and the impact that that will have on patient care. Diolch yn fawr.

I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth now to reply to the debate.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much, and thank you for everybody's contributions to this debate this afternoon. We've heard from Member after Member why we appreciate nurses so much. Yes, we've thanked them on our doorsteps, as we've thanked all staff in the health and care service for their tireless work, but the point comes where we do have to show true appreciation, and that has to include through pay packets.
The Minister has explained to us today why she feels that her hands are tied by the financial settlement of the UK Government. Of course, I agree entirely with her about the impact of the ideology underlying the cuts by one Conservative Government after another. It's a choice to cut the budgets of public services. And a word of advice to the Conservatives: don't draw too much attention to the pitiful increase given to public funding in Wales by your Conservative Government in Westminster, and say that £1.2 billion over two years is anything more than the crumbs that it represents. And another word of advice: don't use a debate like this one to attack devolution and the work that is being done to develop our democracy here in Wales through making up figures about the cost of the reforms that are taking place here in the Welsh Parliament.
But there is a more bitter taste, of course, now, to the economic deficiencies of the Conservatives in Westminster, because we're all paying the price for their inability, and our nurses are paying the price for that inability. But the Welsh Government still has a role to look at their priorities. There are no excuses for the lack of action. We were challenged as an opposition to find the funding. The First Minister, like the Minister today, was critical last week of the Scottish Government saying that they had pulled money out of the NHS to make a better pay offer, as if the nurses themselves aren't one of the most important elements that the NHS can pay for. At the moment, we are seriously asking nurses themselves to fund the NHS that they themselves work for. How can that be justified or acceptable?
We had a promise that the bursary is forever. It's not that unequivocal promise that the bursary won't be downgraded. I am happy to receive an intervention from the Minister if she wants to give us any assurance that there won't be any change to the bursary. She chooses not to make that intervention. We'll leave it there—[Interruption.] No, I was asking that there wouldn't be any downgrading of the bursary either. We've heard that it is remaining, but I look forward to hearing those further promises, because it is so important.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I did say that retention is perhaps more challenging than recruitment, but we have to ensure that we maintain all the tools needed to bring nurses into the profession, and remember many come not straight from school, but perhaps a little later in life and having to give up another job. They need the backing of that bursary at the current level.
On the pay negotiations, Government has to come to the table, and it has to persuade us that it's left no stone unturned. They clearly haven't done that to date, and they clearly haven't done that this afternoon. It's in the Government's interests to do this. Low pay is pushing nurses out of the profession. It's pushing nurses into agency working. I'm grateful for the comments from Huw Irranca-Davies on the impact of agency working, and Carolyn Thomas too. We all want to cut that agency bill. But the pay level currently and the level of morale within the health service is pushing nurses into working agency shifts. The bill has rocketed some 41 per cent in the last year alone, to £133 million in one year. The nursing workforce is effectively being privatised under Labour's watch.
The Labour Government's amendment today takes out our demand that the Welsh Government utilises every devolved lever at its disposal to make an improved pay offer. It's not one single lever; it's all the levers brought together, bringing together all the options at the Government's disposal. I look forward to further comments from the Finance Minister on the fact that there is zero money, apparently, unallocated, and zero in reserves. Perhaps we could have an explanation of whether that really is the case. In tabling that amendment, Labour is refusing to use the levers at their disposal, even though they could. They're turning down opportunities to try to avert this strike. If the Government's amendment passes, then of course we'll support all that's left, a mere statement that nurses deserve fair remuneration. But those words are only words unless Government shows it's ready to take action.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection. I will therefore defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

Before we move on to the vote, Natasha Asghar asked me earlier to reflect on the appropriateness of the use of the term 'hysterical' in response to her by the Deputy Minister for Climate Change during questions this afternoon. There is a very, very long history of the term 'hysteria' being used by men to demean women, especially women in public life, and I apologise to Natasha Asghar for not having noticed it at the time it was said. 'Hysterical' is an inappropriate word to describe any contribution by any woman in this Chamber. It may have been naively used by the Deputy Minister at the time, but I don't expect to hear it again.
Now, we will go on to the vote, unless I have three Members who wish for the bell to be rung.

10. Voting Time

We move to our first vote this afternoon, and the first vote is on the motion to approve the Senedd Commission budget for 2023-24. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Ken Skates. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 36, no abstentions, 15 against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

Item 5. Motion to approve the Senedd Commission Budget for 2023-24: For: 36, Against: 15, Abstain: 0
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

We move now to item 7, the Member debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv) on mental health and community resilience. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Jenny Rathbone. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 41, 10 abstentions, none against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

Item 7. Member Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv) - Mental health and community resilience: For: 41, Against: 0, Abstain: 10
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

The next votes are on item 9, the Plaid Cymru debate on nurses' pay. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian. Open the vote. The vote is equal. In favour 25, one abstention, 25 against. And as required under Standing Orders, I will exercise my casting vote against the motion. The result of that vote would have been very similar to what it would have been if I had allowed the Member to cast his vote for a second time. But we will reflect on what has just happened in order to ensure that we provide clear guidance to Members and the Chair as to what should happen in cases such as the one we've just experienced.

Item 9. Plaid Cymru Debate - Nurses' pay. Motion without amendment: For: 25, Against: 25, Abstain: 1
As there was an equality of votes, the Llywydd used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

So, we now move on to a vote on amendment 1, which was tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 26, no abstentions, 25 against. And therefore, the amendment is agreed.

Item 9. Plaid Cymru debate. Amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths: For: 26, Against: 25, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been agreedClick to see vote results

Amendment 2 is next, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 51, no abstentions, none against. And therefore, amendment 2 is agreed.

Item 9. Plaid Cymru debate. Amendment 2, tabled in the name of Darren Millar: For: 51, Against: 0, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been agreedClick to see vote results

The final vote is on the motion as amended.

Motion NDM8140 as amended:
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Believes that Welsh nurses deserve fair remuneration for their essential work in keeping our communities safe and healthy.
2. Calls on the Welsh Government to meet with the Royal College of Nursing Wales to discuss its campaign for fair pay and safe staffing to avoid strike action this winter.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 52, no abstentions, none against. And therefore, the motion as amended is agreed.

Item 9. Plaid Cymru Debate - Nurses' pay. Motion as amended: For: 51, Against: 0, Abstain: 0
Motion as amended has been agreedClick to see vote results

That concludes voting time.

11. Short Debate: Together stronger: Social enterprise and community-owned businesses in Wales

We will now move on to the short debate. I call on Cefin Campbell to speak to the topic that he has chosen. Cefin Campbell.

Cefin Campbell MS: Thank you very much, Llywydd, and thank you for the opportunity to introduce this debate, and I'm very grateful to Carolyn Thomas, Luke Fletcher and Mabon ap Gwynfor for accepting an invitation to contribute to the debate.
The pandemic made all of us more aware than ever before of the importance of strong and resilient communities. Our communities were in the vanguard of the response to the pandemic, with neighbours and social enterprises working together to support the less fortunate and most vulnerable in their local communities. Following a decade of Conservative austerity, they're now facing a cost-of-living crisis, and we have a duty to support those communities by providing the help that they need not just to survive, but to thrive.
At the heart of vibrant communities are prosperous local businesses, pubs, shops, cafes, post offices and so on. Unfortunately, and increasingly these days, local newspapers across the region that I represent are full of stories of these vital—if I may say—community centres closing, and this brings genuine risks to the sustainability of our communities, and, of course, to the Welsh language and our culture.
However, it's encouraging to see communities, during the pandemic and pre pandemic, coming together to safeguard or buy these important community assets. From the Cwmdu pub in Carmarthenshire to Tafarn Sinc in Pembrokeshire; from the Farmers Arms in the Brecon Beacons to Tafarn y Plu in Llanystumdwy, these pub—and many more than those that I've named—are owned by the communities and play an increasingly important role. In Tre’r-ddôl, for example, Cletwr is a community cafe and shop that supports local producers, provides essential goods, and facilitates a range of Welsh cultural activities. In Newport, Pembrokeshire, the Siop Havards project is raising £450,000 to buy the old ironmongers shop before Christmas. And if successful, this would be the first community goods store in the whole of the United Kingdom, and their business plan includes an integral role for the promotion and protection of the Welsh language.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Cefin Campbell MS: Social enterprises and community-owned businesses thus come in all shapes and sizes, and they play a vital role in community development, in social regeneration and economic transformation. They are central to the foundational economy, and keep capital—human, social and cultural, as well as economic—circulating in local communities. Crucially, they demonstrate that commercial success can and does go hand in hand with social purpose and a community ethos.
A recent article by Grace Blakeley in the Tribune highlighted how, under the umbrella of Cwmni Bro Ffestiniog, social enterprises in Blaenau Ffestiniog provide a world-leading example of grass-roots alternatives to the model of post-industrial capitalism. Before COVID-19, 15 social enterprises in Blaenau employed almost 200 people between them. These include CellB, a cinema and arts centre, and Antur Stiniog, a mountain biking centre. As Blakeley puts it, in Blaenau Ffestiniog, and I quote,
'a critical mass of people stopped believing that it’s impossible to change the world around them. And as soon as they gave up that limiting belief, change just happened.'

Cefin Campbell MS: The majority, if not all, of the community businesses, co-operative enterprises and social enterprises prioritise sustainability and protecting the environment as core elements of their business models. In St Davids, for example, Câr-y-Môr is the first regenerative ocean farm under community ownership in Wales. It's a community benefit society that has two key objectives: improving the coastal environment and creating sustainable jobs. And the seafood that it produces is sustainable and very delicious, and I speak from experience, having been there with Mabon over the summer.
Ynni Sir Gâr is one of many community energy schemes that work to decrease energy costs, to tackle fuel poverty and to produce clean, renewable energy. So, social and community enterprises also have an important part to play in meeting key environmental targets.

Cefin Campbell MS: The success of all these initiatives is owed to the knowledge and drive that exist within our communities. Support to incubate and nurture this needs to be long-term and structural. I would therefore call on the Welsh Government to consider this evening how it might both broaden and deepen its support for community-owned businesses, social enterprises and co-operatives.
The Welsh Government can rightly point to the support it provides to Cwmpas. But there are a number of other smaller organisations, themselves social enterprises, that also provide critical support and guidance to communities seeking to establish community-owned businesses. They undertake community share offers or manage asset transfers. This includes, for example, the Pembrokeshire-based PLANED, which delivers a wide portfolio of community support and has worked with communities to generate more than £1 million in funding to support the purchase and retention of community assets.It has done this, however, without core funding, which means precariousness for employees and a limit to the depth of the support it is able to offer. Reliance on short-term grant funding limits the capacity to plan and deliver projects over the longer term. Whether and what kinds of core funding might be available to organisations like this is therefore my first question to the Welsh Government this evening. This question is all the more important as key financial support available through European structural funding begins to wind up.

Cefin Campbell MS: As I have outlined, social businesses and enterprises that are run by the community have been in the vanguard in terms of social, economic and environmental innovation in Wales. It is, therefore, surprising that they haven’t been prioritised, perhaps, in the innovation strategy for Wales put together by the Government. I would ask for the final version of the strategy to place much greater emphasis on this.
In conclusion, therefore, as the Local Government and Housing Committee at the Senedd has emphasised, at present, there is no process in Wales to guarantee that community assets remain in the hands of a community, despite the legal rights that exist in this field for communities in Scotland and England. I would, therefore, like to echo those constant calls for legislation for a community right to buy assets to reflect what happens in Scotland.All of this would provide the support that is very much needed by communities as they try to follow the inspiring example set by the numerous and dynamic co-operative enterprises that we have across Wales, which drive economic regeneration and development plans that are based on local need and are rooted in their communities. Thank you very much.

Luke Fletcher AS: Thank you to Cefin for bringing this short debate forward. Cefin has made an important point already: businesses that aren't located in our communities mean that the wealth created bleeds out of those communities. Building community wealth tries to restructure the economy so that wealth is captured within the community, is shared and democratised. Social enterprises can also help to transform and restructure the Welsh economy significantly. Evidence suggests that social enterprises are more likely to be fair employers and that 76 per cent of social enterprises in Wales pay the living wage. Social enterprises can come in many forms, as we've heard, including co-operative organisations, co-owned, community benefit companies, businesses that belong to the communities, trading charities and more. The key difference with conventional businesses is the degree to which the profit motive is dominant. It's true that social enterprises do aim to make a profit, but they are organisations that are led by values, which mean that they are best placed to tackle the economic challenges facing Wales today.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: I'd just like to quickly thank Cefin for bringing this debate forward again. It's good to hear this discussed on the floor of the Senedd and to see recognition of the work of the Local Government and Housing Committee.
I wanted to take this opportunity to pay tribute to the inspiring father of community enterprises in Wales, the late Carl Clowes, who passed away earlier this year. Carl Clowes, of course, established Antur Aelhaearn in Llanaelhaearn back in 1974, having identified that community's weakness following the closure of a number of local works and the need to bring the community together and to create initiatives where the community had ownership, and brought pride back to that community. Carl then went on to establish so many other things, such as Nant Gwrtheyrn. So, I wanted to recognise that.
To conclude, there are other community enterprises in the pipeline in Dwyfor Meirionnydd. I wanted to highlight Menter Gwesty'r Tŵr in Pwllheli, which is just beginning, Menter in Aberdyfi, and also Menter y Glan in Pennal. If anyone wants to buy a sharein Menter y Glan, Pennal, they're looking to collect £250,000. They're on £220,000 already, with the support of people like Matthew Rhys, so I encourage you to support Menter y Glan in Pennal too. Thank you.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Thank you to Cefin for giving me a minute of his time. Community facilities are places of immeasurable friendship, kindness and confidence building that cannot be measured by GDP. They are community halls, pubs and playing fields. They are areas that should be protected for people and nature. Rhyl rugby club is an exemplar grass-roots facility, not only providing a place for hundreds of young people to train, but they're also fed at the same time. It's used by 26 community groups, and it employs 20 people, providing food, drink and entertainment for the wider community. Llandegla has a not-for-profit community shop, cafe and takeaway on Offa's Dyke footpath, run by volunteers for the community. Holywell Leisure Centre, including swimming baths, was under threat of closure due to UK Government austerity measures, but a group of locals got together to run it as a charity, and I hope that austerity 2.0 and rising costs will not bring it to an end. Community social enterprises are a place where wealth is shared, not stored in banks, and where happiness and well-being should be the measure of success. Diolch.

I call on the Deputy Minister for Arts and Sport to reply to the debate—Dawn Bowden.

Dawn Bowden AC: Thank you Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you to Cefin Campbell for introducing this important debate today. As you will be aware, supporting social enterprises across Wales to develop is one of the key aims of the Welsh Government.

Dawn Bowden AC: Our vision is a well-being economy that drives prosperity and is environmentally sound and helps everyone to realise their potential. It's rooted in our existing economic action plan, 'Prosperity for All', with its progressive purposes of reducing inequality and spreading wealth and well-being across all of Wales.
Our economic well-being is without doubt tied to our environmental, cultural and social well-being. Social enterprises in Wales form a dynamic, diverse sector, which has demonstrated considerable growth over the last few years. There are currently 2,309 social businesses identified in Wales, who employ an estimated 59,000 people. As well as helping to achieve social and economic policy objectives, the sector is an important tool in helping the Welsh Government achieve its goals through the programme for government. It's important that we learn from the values and principles of social enterprises and co-operatives that have helped us through the pandemic to build that greener, fairer and more prosperous tomorrow.
Social enterprises are an important part of our foundational economy. They are frequently community owned, provide local employment, and often put improving their local area at the heart of what they do. The foundational economy approach offers the chance to reverse the deterioration of employment conditions, reduce the leakage of money from communities, and address the environmental cost of extended supply chains.
There's specific attention being paid to supporting co-operatives, social enterprises, employee-owned organisations and SMEs rooted in their communities to engage in public procurement, helping sustain and create local employment opportunities, leading to healthier communities. The Welsh Government has made a commitment in our programme for government in Wales to double the number of employee-owned business by 2026. To achieve that, we are committed to providing greater support to ensure Wales-based companies remain in Welsh hands. There are currently 44 employee-owned businesses here in Wales, and this is ahead of the profiled number to reach doubling the number of employee-owned businesses to 60 within this Senedd term. On average, two to three employee buy-out deals take place here in Wales each year, but the scale of the employee-owned sector has grown in the past few years, with the potential for many more. Employee ownership delivers numerous benefits for employees and for businesses, with evidence showing that employee-owned businesses are more productive and more resilient. They're also rooted in their local areas and regions, securing good-quality jobs for the longer term within communities across Wales.
Now, as Cefin has already acknowledged, the Welsh Government are working with Cwmpas, and we're providing funding to further promote the benefits and development of employee ownership in Wales to ensure businesses based here are aware of the opportunities and the benefits that it offers. An employee-owned business that you may be aware of, Cefin, is Tregroes Waffles. Do you know them? Tregroes Waffles, which is a small family-run bakery based in the Teifi valley in south-west Wales. It started life in 1983 when Kees Huysmans came to Wales to set up a market stall selling his version of traditional Dutch stroop. Recruiting locally, the business employs 15 people and remains strongly embedded in the community. The owner began to explore the concept of employee ownership about five years before the transition started, inspired by the John Lewis partnership model. In 2016, Kees told 10 per cent of his shares to the trust, using company profits to pay for them. As part of the agreement, the owner will sell a further 10 per cent to the trust each year, provided the company is able to pay for them. The employee-ownership model has enabled Tregroes Waffles to maintain and build upon its success in the area. The benefits of the employee-owned business are vast and include a smooth business succession, keeping the company locally rooted, workforce empowerment, buy-in and engagement and the ability to manage ongoing culture change.As a Government, we are keen to ensure that businesses consider employee ownership as an option when the time is right, and that we have the infrastructure here in Wales to support that transition.
The Development Bank of Wales manages a range of funds that are primarily focused on providing investment to micro and to medium-sized businesses across the business lifecycle. The £25 million Wales management succession fund provides ambitious managers and management teams with the funding that they need to buy established Welsh SMEs when their current owners retire or sell up. Dedicated support is also available through Social Business Wales for social enterprises who wish to start and grow and, for those businesses wanting to transition to employee ownership, we've made the commitment to provide funding of up to £1.7 million for the continuation of that service from April next year.
So, in concluding, Dirprwy Lywydd, I welcome this debate today on a subject area that we see as having a huge positive impact on the Welsh economy and in delivering on our programme for government. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you, everyone. That brings today's proceedings to a close.

The meeting ended at 18:54.

QNR

Questions to the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language

Mark Isherwood: How is the Welsh Government supporting additional learning needs pupils?

Jeremy Miles: We are committed to creating an inclusive education system. Our additional learning needs reforms put learners at the heart of the process to identify and meet their needs and will help ensure that all pupils requiring additional support to meet an ALN have that support properly planned for and protected.

Tom Giffard: Will the Minister provide an update on school absence rates?

Jeremy Miles: Attendance rates continue to improve with average attendance currently at 91.2 per cent, but challenges remain. My priority is to ensure that all children and young people have the opportunity to reach their potential, regardless of their background. Maintaining good attendance and engagement with children and their families is key to this.

Gareth Davies: Will the Minister provide an update on the impact of home-schooling reforms on people in Denbighshire?

Jeremy Miles: We expect that the new statutory guidance for elective home education will be implemented in April 2023 and that, in doing so, it will bring a range of benefits to electively home-educated children and young people in Wales, including those in Denbighshire.

Delyth Jewell: What plans does the Welsh Government have in place to train more Welsh-medium teachers in Wales?

Jeremy Miles: Our Welsh in education workforce plan, which I published earlier this year, sets out a number of actions that we will take with our stakeholders to increase the number of Welsh-medium teachers over the next 10 years.

Questions to the Deputy Minister for Climate Change

Natasha Asghar: What plans does the Welsh Government have to improve public transport?

Lee Waters: Public transport connects people to one another, binds communities together and enables businesses to grow and expand. 'Llwybr Newydd: the Wales Transport Strategy 2021', sets out our plans for an accessible, sustainable and efficient transport system across the nation.

Cefin Campbell: What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the potential role of regenerative ocean farming in combating climate change and restoring biodiversity in Mid and West Wales?

Lee Waters: The concept of regenerative ocean farming is an emerging industry being trialled in Wales. Whilst no formal assessment has been undertaken, we hope to see tangible benefits to biodiversity through increased nursery habitat benefiting some species and improved water quality. We will continue to assess the evidence as it develops.

Heledd Fychan: How is the Welsh Government ensuring that transport costs do not impact learners' attendance in school?

Lee Waters: My officials have been in discussions with local authorities and school transport providers throughout Wales regarding the general cost of school transport, as they continue to discharge their statutory duties in providing home-to-school transport to learners.

Vikki Howells: What are the Welsh Government's priorities for improving access to public transport in Cynon Valley?

Lee Waters: The south Wales metro is an ambitious, multimillion-pound project that will transform the way we all travel, with focus on rail, bus, active travel, and integrated transport. Throughout all of the south Wales metro, we will electrify 170 km of track and upgrade all our stations and signalling.